Applying Brakes?

[bilirubin 50]

Hi all,

 

I have treated myself to a Saitek Pro Flight Yoke c/w a 3 lever Quadrant Module.

 

When I was using my joystick I programmed a button to apply/release the brakes so one press applied the brakes and another press of the same button released them.

 

I have programmed the buttons on my new Saitek yoke however I cannot seem to replicate what I had on the joystick for the brakes.

 

Whatever button I programme to apply/release the brakes works fine to release them but once released I cannot re-apply them?

 

Am I doing something wrong?

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

[allardjd 1,853]

Mike,

 

Just to be clear, are you referring to the parking brakes?

 

John

[bilirubin 50]

Hi John,

 

I believe I am talking about the parking brakes but as you know I am still learning. The option in the FSX events menu is:

 

Brakes (apply/release) and I had this assigned to 1 x button which applied the brakes when pressed and released the brakes when pressed again.

 

There is another option in the events menu for Brakes (set parking)?

 

Mike 

[allardjd 1,853]

Parking brakes and wheel brakes (i.e. to be used in landing, taxiing, etc.) are two different functions. Parking brakes are "persistent"; when invoked, they remain set until another command is given to release them. The other brake setting is intended to be momentary, where the brakes are only applied while the key/switch/button is held down and released when the control is released. It sounds as if what you are talking about it the parking brakes.

 

When the parking brakes are set, (default keystroke Ctrl-period) a red flag becomes visible at the lower left of your FS screen that says "PARKING BRAKES - Press PERIOD (.) to release". They can also be released by the Ctrl-period keystroke, so that command is a toggle - press once to apply, once again to release. This function can be assigned to other keystrokes or programmable buttons on input devices such as joysticks, yokes, throttle quadrants, etc. Re-assignment is accomplished from Top line menu -> Options -> Settings -> Controls...

 

Under the BUTTONS/KEYS tab, there are a number of brake functions available for assignment. The persistent one, i.e. parking brakes, is titled "Brakes (set parking)". The momentary one is labeled "Brakes (apply/release)".

 

I hope I'm understanding what you're after and haven't completely missed the mark.

 

John

[Quickmarch 488]

Two kinds of brakes - JA is on the money.

 

I use the (default) keystroke system for parking brakes - cntrl .(period) = on     .(period)= off. Kind of like your car's parking brake.

 

I've no idea how to program a "yoke" system to apply/release the toe brakes. Maybe you need to invest in a set of pedals and program the toe brakes for stopping the aircraft. Is there a button on the yoke that can be programmed for a "toggle"? ie: press it for brakes "on" release for brakes "off"

 

Note: I don't have pedals - I use a joystick with a trigger. Trigger is a momentary "on" switch; on = brakes, off = no brakes) twisting the joystick determines "differential brakes", left or right. The programming is done in FSX's "settings" menu.

[allardjd 1,853]

When programming FS controls, you'll find references to "buttons", "switches" and "axes" or "rotations'. Buttons are momentary controls - press and release, though the action they perform, e.g. lowering landing gear may be "persistent". Switches are pretty much the same as buttons but remain in one of two or more physical states when operated. Some add-on physical panels have a few of them.

 

Axes and rotations (same thing, really) are controls that allow proportional control over a range of motion. Some are spring loaded to return to a "home" or "at rest" position, e.g. yoke, pedals, joystick, and some may remain where you place them. The best example of the latter is a throttle but they are used for other things too.

 

Perhaps the oddest is trim, which may be done by either a momentary switch (usually a two-way rocker) or by a wheel that remains where you put it.

 

Don't let the terminology make you crazy. It's not as hard as it sounds and there's plenty of help available.

 

John

[Andrew Godden 943]

Mike,

 

Some additional comments to what John and March have said.  First, I have the all the Saitek Pro Flight gear.  For physical reasons associated with an injury, I cannot use the rudder pedals for toe brakes, so I have assigned them to Button 1 on the yoke.  Note.  This is the Brakes (apply/release) event in the FSX Settings - Controls screen.  For the parking brake, I have assigned that to one of the six button assignments on the throttle quadrant (under the throttle levers).  Note.  This is the Brakes (set parking) event in the FSX Settings - Controls screen.  In the former assignment, pressing Button 1 applies the brakes until I release it, in the same manner as using the brake peddle in a car.  However, be sure to have the repeat slider set all the way to the right for this.  In the latter assignment, pressing the button on the throttle quadrant applies the parking brake.  Pressing it again, releases the parking brake.

 

From what you describe, it is highly possible there are legacy joystick assignments and they are interfering with your new assignments.  To clear these, under the Buttons/Keys tab in the Settings - Controls screen, select each controller type from the drop down box and delete any joystick assignments you have not made.  Make sure to do this for every controller type.  I have often found it is easier to start with a clean sheet when setting up a new controller or reassigning controls to my controllers, so I will first go through each controller in turn and delete all joystick assignments and then go back and assign the events to the buttons of my choosing.

 

Just a further point.  With my assignments, as described, as soon as I press Button 1 on the yoke, it automatically releases the parking brake.  As far as I can recall, this is a factor of FSX and cannot be altered.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

 

 

 

[Quickmarch 488]

Andrew's comments about left-over (legacy) control (joystick) assignments is an issue that I ran afoul of in the past. Mostly this had to do with switching joysticks and re-configuring the FSX "Controls" settings from within FSX.

 

Every time you do this FSX writes additional lines into a file named "Standard.xml". This file is in a separate "Controls" sub-directory in the path: [your drive letter - C, D, etc]:/Users/[your computer name]/appdata/roaming/FSX/Controls.

 

Rather than mess about in the XML file, it is best to simply rename your file to something like Standard.bak - Windoze will warn you that changing the filetype is a bad idea. Ignore this warning. This, effectively, gets rid of the Standard.xml file and FSX will re-write a new version the next time you fire up the software. As you add control changes in the FSX Settings they are recorded in the new Standard.xml file. Note: you can read the contents of these (.xml) files with notepad.

 

Alternatively, slide on over to something like Vatsim and find a file authored by Fermin Fernandez called "fsx_xml_toolbox.zip". This is a handy little stand-alone software package that will make mods to your XML files safe and easy.

[Corsaire31 419]

I use a Saitek yoke for planes with yokes and a Thrustmaster T16000M joystick for planes with joystick or helos.

 

I configured controls for the joystick. Copied the "Standard.xml" to desktop, renamed it "StandardJ.xml" and saved it in the same "Controls" folder.

Did the same for the yoke and saved it as "StandardY.xml"

 

When I switch my controls, I delete the "Standard.xml" file, copy the StandardJ or StandardY to desktop, rename it "Standard.xml" and move it to "Controls" folder.  This way I never write new controls over old ones. Always worked.

 

Can't help for the brakes problem, I use the toe brakes on my Saitek rudder pedals.  For setting the parking brake I usually use the mouse click in VC, and release by pressing one of the toe brakes.

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

When I literally ditched my CH pedals, during the time I was waiting for new Saitek Pedals I kept flying...but I have some planes (Heron for example) that have no nose wheel leaving brakes and throttles as only way to steer on the ground, as well as normal "Stopping after Landing". Not having a mutli-throttle panel, and VC throttle handling isn't very easy. I had to assign some keyboard keys to the toe brakes

I found that the / and - keys on the number pad worked well..they are out of the way, easy to spot (and in my case any pre-assignments were for stuff I don't use normally - YMMV)...assign the keys, move slider to full right side so that they "repeat" as the button is held down...for convenience I reassigned the Park Brake/Apply Brakes to the * button between the two "toe brakes"...to help coordinate full braking with toe braking.

 

Cheers.

[bilirubin 50]

Hi All,

 

Thank you for all the feedback and comments. A few of you that have commented appear to be understanding me and are bang on the money. I am hoping to get some flying time in tonight so I will have a play around.

 

It is now clear that one mistake I have been making is using the parking brakes for everything i.e. slowing down on the runway, slowing down during taxi, etc.

 

If I am understanding you all correctly there is one set of brakes like a car's i.e. when applied they work and when released they don't whilst the parking brakes are like the handbrake on a car.

 

In effect I have been doing 360o handbrake turns when trying to slow down or stop  

 

Mike

[allardjd 1,853]

If I am understanding you all correctly there is one set of brakes like a car's i.e. when applied they work and when released they don't whilst the parking brakes are like the handbrake on a car.

 

 

 

Exactly right!

 

John

[bilirubin 50]

Whilst talking about the different brakes can I run the following past you all:

 

I have taxied out to the beginning of the runway and the instructions being given to me by my co pilot/FSX voice are telling me hold my position on the runway and build up the engine speed to 50% and let them stabilise.

 

Obviously when I increase the power the plane wants to move so do I hold it in position with the parking brake or the other brakes?

 

Mike

[allardjd 1,853]

...when I increase the power the plane wants to move so do I hold it in position with the parking brake or the other brakes?

 

 

For that use the wheel brakes, which would be the toe brakes (top of the rudder pedals) in a real-world aircraft and if you have rudder pedals.  Parking brakes are only used for parking, oddly enough.  

 

By the way the toe brakes are applied individually so you can steer with them as well as controlling speed.  You'll see a red flag on the lower left of your FSX screen that says "DIFFERENTIAL BRAKING" when they are not being applied equally.  It's a handy tool for ground maneuvering, along with differential throttle on multi-engine aircraft.

 

John

[bilirubin 50]

Thanks John,

 

Your answer covers another thing I did not understand as there is an option in settings/controls/buttons for brakes left and brakes right.

 

Phew this is hard work isn't it, we fly out to the Greek Islands tomorrow for a weeks holiday on Crete, I shall be paying close attention when I am on the plane

 

Mike 

[allardjd 1,853]

Phew this is hard work isn't it...

 

 

It keeps the gray cells busy and can be very rewarding, after you get past the part where it can be very frustrating.  It gets better.  Hang in there.

 

John

[brett 2,315]

I don't know about everyone else but I learned how to fly in the sim faster than it took me to figure out how FSX works. It has been an ongoing learning experience to this day and has been one of the more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

One thing I know for sure is that it would never have been possible without the hundreds/thousands of folks within forums that have always been kind and understanding of my ongoing knowledge levels when answering my questions. (A big thanks to them all )

 

Please excuse my rambling and not to confuse things even more, I would like to add that in FSX the parking brakes are incorrectly coded stronger than the toe brakes for some reason which is generally speaking not as it is in the real world.

 

Even still, since all aircraft are not the same I would always recommend using the planes checklists while operating them as they are created by the manufacturers during testing and in the long run is an important habit to get into.

 

Enjoy your trip Mike, be safe and have fun.

[Andrew Godden 943]

...I would like to add that in FSX the parking brakes are incorrectly coded stronger than the toe brakes for some reason which is generally speaking not as it is in the real world...

Brett,

I'm pretty sure there is a line in the aircraft.cfg which relates to braking effectiveness. At the moment, it's the middle of the night and I'm on my iPad because I can't sleep. I will check later today when I finally get up.

Cheers

Andrew

[brett 2,315]

Sleep well.
 
Here is one from the default C172 aircraft.cfg file,

[brakes]
parking_brake = 1 //Parking brake available
toe_brakes_scale = 0.68 //Brake scalar
auto_brakes = 0
 
I am going to guess that the number for the parking brake is a 0=False and 1=True so it is an either there is one or there isn't. Any scalar would be in the .air file.
 
The toe brakes are on a scalar and can be adjusted but from what I have read toe brakes would generally be stronger than a parking brake as they are only holding a stationary aircraft in place, usually some sort of mechanical holding system, whereas toe brakes are needed to stop the momentum of a moving aircraft.
 
As you would expect looking through the various CFG files on different aircraft, the toe brake scalar numbers change based on the size, quality and year the aircraft was made.

Check out the Sopwith Camel

[brakes]
toe_brakes_scale = 0.001
parking_brake = 1
differential_braking_scale = 1

[allardjd 1,853]

Usually FS scalar values expect a number between 0 and 1, with 1 being the greatest effectiveness or "gain".

 

John

[Bruce (a.k.a. brian747) 142]

I remember an after-dinner speech given by an RAF former pilot turned air trafficker.

 

One of the quips was along the lines of....

 

"As for the brakes, do bear in mind that these work much better on the ground.

 

So if we're catching up with a Cessna on the approach do feel free to apply the brakes. It will definitely stop the wheels going round, but then it's always nice to feel part of a team...".   

 

@OP

 

Glad you're getting the hang of it. There are some great guys here, and the advice you have is the best on the 'net.   

 

Cheers,

 

bruce

a.k.a. brian747

 

[Andrew Godden 943]

Brett,

 

The "toe_brakes_scale" entry was the one I was specifically referring to and, as John correctly pointed out, adjusting this entry will decrease/increase the effectiveness on the aircraft.  It's all a bit of trial and error.  The same can also be said for any other scale entries in the aircraft.cfg, and I have used them to tweak the performance characteristics of aircraft which haven't been modelled quite so accurately against their real world counterparts.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[brett 2,315]

Lets go to the source by reading the SDK under aircraft.cfg,

Parking_brake- Boolean setting if a parking brake is available on the aircraft.
(example)
Airbus A321( parking_brake = 1 )
Aircreation582SL( parking_brake=1 )
DeHavilland Beaver DHC2( parking_brake = 0 )(note that this aircraft has floats so no need for a parking brake so 0=False)

Toe_brakes_scale - Sets the scaling of the braking effectiveness. 1.0 is the default. 0.0 scales the brakes to no effectiveness.
(example)
Airbus A321( toe_brakes_scale = 0.885 )
Aircreation582SL( toe_brakes_scale=1.000031 )
Boeing 747-400( toe_brakes_scale = 1.24 )
Beech Baron 58( toe_brakes_scale = 1.0 )

 

Looking at the Aircreation and the Boeing examples I notice that the scalar is higher than 1.0 so maybe the max scalar can be higher than that? Anyone know what it can be, I couldn't find anything although there are some pretty big numbers when referencing other scalars such as max engine power. Maybe these things are set in the actual FSX coding.

[brett 2,315]

Sorry Andrew, we posted at the same time.

 

Thanks for your input and sometimes you can even do crazy things, my default C172 is ten knots faster due to, ahem cough, an engine upgrade.