allardjd 1,853 Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/air-india-forgotten-landing-gear-low-fuel/ Hard to believe, but apparently true. Air India pilots puzzled by poor performance of the aircraft because they left the gear down for the flight. AC was reported to be a brand new A320. John 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 DeRostered....prior to being BeRoasted, and then DeFired. Guess who wasn't using their checklists? Guess why using Checklists are MANdatory...because man, and woman, is fallible. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 They might get promoted - one of them will probably be Chief Pilot next week. It wasn't long ago that I was reading about a lot of unqualified pilots over in that part of the world with purchased credentials and not much to back them up. John Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,283 Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 That's not just one person making a mistake but two, unreal. Link to post Share on other sites
hlminx 301 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Even though they make a big point of saying that the flight crew were both female, I did have to laugh. One wonders how they even realised that they didnt have enough fuel to make Mumbai! Gotta wonder what the cockpit conversation on take off was: 'V1...rotate... positive rate...hey, loving your nail art.. is that gel or acrylic? You must give me the number of your nail salon' . Or maybe 'did you see the price of the coffee in the crew lounge at Kolkata has gone up 10%? Scandalous' Would love to hear what was on the CVR when they configured for landing.. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites
wain 879 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 saw this the other day over on the darkside (XP FORUM).....how strange that 2 people didnt't notice....I suppose it's down to the systems that they were unable to fly at correct Alt & speed so imagine if they had got to a much higher speed and caused damage, could have been a really bad one.... Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 10 hours ago, hlminx said: One wonders how they even realised that they didnt have enough fuel to make Mumbai! Well, at least they were paying attention to that, or were warned somehow. Given Airbus' reputation for extreme automation I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some kind of warning generated about the gear being down related to altitude, airspeed, power setting, or some such. The article doesn't specifically say they exceeded the maximum speed for gear extended but it seems likely that they must have. John Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, allardjd said: Well, at least they were paying attention to that, or were warned somehow. Given Airbus' reputation for extreme automation I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some kind of warning generated about the gear being down related to altitude, airspeed, power setting, or some such. The article doesn't specifically say they exceeded the maximum speed for gear extended but it seems likely that they must have. John At the very least no doubt they were Trying to exceed max gear speed...doh. I bet they were checking every engine related system trying to figure out why they weren't going fast enough. How far from the engine instruments is the gear lever btw? ...it's not a plane I fly ever in the sim. OH...MY...F...G. Really *ladies? (*because no one will ever refer to them as Pilots again, Ever) Edited July 29, 2017 by Captain Coffee 2 Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,283 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 I will admit that I have left the gear down longer than I should have but my first thought when my speeds were not correct compared to settings was to check the gear lever and that is with only sim pilot experience.(or non-experience in many instances) Some things should be inexcusable in the real world and this was one of them, lol. Anyone think that to much automation can cause laziness in the cockpit? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Ive done it too in sim, it was a biplane however....even captured the d'oh moment on video on my YouTube page. But...Biplane...Not the sort of speedy thing that usually even has gear. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 On a company charter one time (9-seat piston-twin, unpressurized), I tapped the co-pilot on the shoulder and told him I didn't really want to try to tell him his business, but did they really need take-off flaps in cruise? He looked at the panel, did a double-take, said something to the pilot over their intercom, and reached down and retracted the flaps. John 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
hlminx 301 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, allardjd said: Given Airbus' reputation for extreme automation I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some kind of warning generated about the gear being down related to altitude, airspeed, power setting, or some such. The article doesn't specifically say they exceeded the maximum speed for gear extended but it seems likely that they must have. I would have thought there would have been some warning generated too but all I could find were documents relating to incorrect gear position in a landing/ditching scenario. Maybe Aurbus figured the big pretty green lights were enough.. Jess B may know..being the resident Airbus guru Edited July 30, 2017 by hlminx 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jess-b 420 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 1 hour ago, hlminx said: I would have thought there would have been some warning generated too but all I could find were documents relating to incorrect gear position in a landing/ditching scenario. Maybe Aurbus figured the big pretty green lights were enough.. Jess B may know..being the resident Airbus guru I will test it and let you know. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
phil white 274 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 15 hours ago, brett said: Anyone think that to much automation can cause laziness in the cockpit? I once watched a video online and it was a seminar somewhere and in the video it explained that only the required amount of automation should be used. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, phil white said: ...it explained that only the required amount of automation should be used. I don't think Airbus got the memo. While things like autopilot, FMC and other nav-related technology are mostly up to the crew to use or not, there is an immense amount of automation in modern aircraft that is not discretionary - it's built in. Fly-by-Wire and FADEC technology are obvious examples. Airbus has gone further with that than their competitors, of course, but they all employ it extensively. Gear warning systems are common in most aircraft of any sophistication, including a lot of smaller bizjets and high-end GA types but most commonly are focused on preventing gear-up landings. This situation was the other edge of the sword - leaving it down when it should have been up. Link to post Share on other sites
phil white 274 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 Never mind any warning sounds or lights, the position of the lever is in my opinion the most obvious of all. lever up = gear up and lever down = gear down. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 26 minutes ago, phil white said: Never mind any warning sounds or lights, the position of the lever is in my opinion the most obvious of all. lever up = gear up and lever down = gear down. + 1, and it's a pretty big honking lever at that. Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) I was pretty awestruck by how close the gear lever is to the Engine MFPs after I google searched for a cockpit image...like...RIGHT NEXT TO IT...and they still didn't notice it was in the wrong position. It just doesn't get any more Clueless/Oblivious than that. It's not Subtle either...as John said, it's a Big Honking Lever, it is sticking out of the Panel in full 3 Dimensions, the copilot actually has it right in Line of Sight while checking the Engine MFP. I submit that these ladies should never be permitted to operate Motor driven machinery of any kind for the rest of their lives...perma-Ban from any Machinery Operation...tattoo it on their foreheads, "Not Permitted to Operate Machinery or Power Tools". Edited July 30, 2017 by Captain Coffee 1 Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,283 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 I wonder if they are getting paid less than their male counterparts. Link to post Share on other sites
Jess-b 420 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 Right. I haven't flown with the gear down yet to test, but I have spent time with the FCOM and QRH today to see what Airbus themselves say. The QRH is useless, mostly because Airbus didn't perceive any pilot would willfully fly with the gear down. Likewise the FCOM offers little advice for pilots deliberately flying with the gear without some kind of issue. It offers lots of advice if you have to fly with the gear down due to failures, but again, Airbus figures the three bloody green lights and ECAM gear page offers pilots the best way to see the gear is still down. For the record, the checklist calls for the pilot not flying to raise the gear at 100 feet after takeoff. What puzzles me is this crew didn't even check the gear via the visual scan. It sounds like a complete breakdown of CRM and tunnel vision. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
hifly 925 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 A 320 After Takeoff Checklist: Punch Flightplan into FMC.* Engage autopilot & autothrottle. Discuss new crew rotations. Play with that lever that you've never noticed before. Look out the window to watch the cows get smaller. Wonder what those three green lights mean. Wonder what all that noise is and why are we going so slow. Check into Mutley's Hangar on the ipad. Google A320, three green lights? Contd on page 28 *United Security Staff Preflight; Punch pax who refuse to give up their seat for CC relocation. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 9 hours ago, brett said: I wonder if they are getting paid less than their male counterparts. I wonder if their male and female counterparts are getting trained more or less than these female counterclerks. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there's no reason to assume their gender had anything to do with it. If you're looking for boneheaded things pilots have done the ladies have a long way to go to catch up. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,283 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Yup, just another case of gender neutral Cranialanalintrerrupitis. Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 13 hours ago, allardjd said: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there's no reason to assume their gender had anything to do with it. If you're looking for boneheaded things pilots have done the ladies have a long way to go to catch up. John Totally agree which I why i wondered about Both Gender's training...this kind of thing is symptomatic of a systemic problem, not a gender issue. Link to post Share on other sites
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