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Kevin Firth

Earth Simulations Autogenesis product page up

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I am wondering about one thing. Do most people only fly in one area as normal practice, as Ray mentioned? Just curious.

 

I fly around the entire UK, and nip across the Irish Sea to a handful of the larger airports in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland.

 

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Brian, i believe you have the option to purchase the autogen portion separately from the photoreal imagery

their autogen work should work with any existing PR and significantly reduce overall costs

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If each section is the same price it should cost a little over $2000. 

:stars:  Where on Earth do you get that from Brit?  have you also included the purchase of 18x 500GB usb3.0 hardrives in your calculations? 

 

Let's look at the ES pricing in more detail taking the very most expensive option as the example. There are cheaper alternative options on offer too let's not forget.

 

30cm photoGenesis = £29.99 rrp

Autogenesis included is plus £14.99 rrp

 

ES Total per area = £44.98 rrp

 

*Please don't forget.  

Drive prices are either 100% refundable,  or if you choose to, you will have purchased yourself a brand new hard drive. We're making nothing at ES from drive sales, if you look online you'll be lucky to find an equivalent 500gb usb3.0 drive any cheaper than we're offering here..

 

So....Let's compare this to GenX & Treescapes combo from Playsims

 

120cm or 60cm volume = £34.99 rrp

Treescapes = £ 19.95 rrp

 

GenX Total per Volume = £54.94 rrp

 

Yes I concede there are twice the number of ES areas compared to GenX volume areas, but in the same breath I'll argue that the 4x-8x inrease in resolution, plus the addition of decent nightlighting textures, seasonal textures, colour, cloud and line corrections, Not to mention the very expansive 3D content... more than make up for that. 

 

Just sayin' like  ;)

 

 

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Forgive me Darren, I thought there were three times as many areas as GenX? So 6volumes x 3areas x £45 plus 2volumes x1area x £45 is £850 all in?

$ is 1.71 to the £ today so that's equivalent to $1453.50, not $2000 :P

K (yes pedantry is my middle name!)

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If we use Darren's example (30cm PhotoGenesis plus Download 3D AutoGenesis) @ £44.98 per volume........

 

18 volumes x £44.98 = £809.64, or $1384.48 at the current exchange rate. However, does the customer have to pay postage to send the hard drive back to ES, or is subsequent collection of the hard drive covered in the refundable deposit?

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(yes pedantry is my middle name!)

 

OK, I should perhaps have been absolutely entirely accurate with saying "Twice". There're in fact precisely 2.25 x more ES areas, each costing approximately 20% less than a volume of GenX

So...taking vol 6 as the example as it's first out the door: The same area covered in ES works out a little under 39% more expensive than GenX size for size. But Size most certainly isn't everything in this case, there's one hellava lot more to it, which I'll reiterate is in my own opinion not to be ignored..

 

Now forgive me, as I'm going to get a little blunt about it.

If you don't believe that the extra content and detail etc are worth the extra, then either I've been listening to the wrong people this last few years, or someones not been honest with us. As the number one and number three requested item on our helpdesk voting system has been to "add 3D buildings to the UK scenery" & " provide a 30cm version". Everyone, unanimously wants us to maintain the high level of quality we're known for. I'll argue the point with anyone, that it takes an incredible amount of work and time to take a scenery area to the levels of detail and quality that we have, especially on a large scale such as this and with less than perfect source data. We're the only ones that have been daft enough to try it, and to be frank chaps, if your ultimate decisions are it's not worth it to you, then by consequence it's an inevitable fact that it won't be worth it to us either.

It's a curious point that a lot of guys have no issues at all shelling out £20.00 or more on a single high quality GA airfield?? :wacko2:

 

 

 is subsequent collection of the hard drive covered in the refundable deposit?

 

No Chris, it's not. You get the entire £40.00 deposit back.

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Darren, I think you missed my point, I wasn't commenting on the value of the product to me, as you know that already, just that Brotfrog got the numbers wrong :P

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Hi Kev

 

Likewise my reply isn't targeted at you per se, but rather is a general response to anyone who might be led into believing that the products are over priced for what they are. They certainly aren't, and what's more...we can demonstrate it.

 

There are cheap cars, and there are more expensive better cars. The principle is exactly the same. You can also save a few quid by riding around in a trabant. But you're not going to get mercedes knocking down their prices in order to compete with them are you?

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Let's straighten some things out here, it was me that posted the $2000.00 quote not Nigel. My name is Brett. :)  

 

I went on the site and added up the best quality products they had and was using a website to make the calculations to US money. I wasn't trying to make an issue here, just get an about price for this product. I apologize for not being accurate to the penny, I might have even added in the other areas like IOM. Was just trying to figure out an round-about price for the best quality offered. $1000.00, 15000, 2000, it's still a good chunk of change.

 

I don't personally fly in the UK all the time and when I do my flights are usually 1-2 hours from A to B. Only occasionally do I sightsee in the same spot.

 

Love Darrens work, it's the best out there right now. Is it for me, not right now, It's cost prohibitive for my type of flying and hence my question to the others on how they like to fly.

 

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despite people blaming me for things i didnt say/do or otherwise :) that makes a change eh?

 

I am rather looking forward to seeing what the 30cm stuff really looks like after all this video still makes me goosebumpy and that was made 5 years ago I just love the scenery and cannot imagine wha it will now look like, if you want better clarity you can download it

 

 

I will certainly be investing in this region when it comes out.

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Some speculation here,

 

Darren & co' are treading a very fine line, trading off many, many hours of scenery development for the UK hoping for a return to keep their business prosperous & capable of producing yet more wonderful scenery.

 

I've spent close to 5 years creating freeware UK scenery (since I retired) & recently had some of it classed as good as ES scenery which is flattering, but in truth, ES scenery is in another league which I look at with awe.

 

As far as FSX goes, especially here in the UK, we need developers who push the boundaries and are supported by the sim' community otherwise our hobby will die.

 

Ray.

 

 

 

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If I may Joe, Vikki and I would like to offer some perspective on pricing, so that our users can appreciate a little more clearly how it is that we come to the figures, and why it is they couldn't possibly be less than we ask. We want to be as open and transparent as possible and have people understand. Whilst we also completed the first area of Autogenesis, and much of the time was spent in R&D perfecting the techniques that we will use going forwards, we've spent a full 9 months on the development of the first area. Future areas will not take as long, and we're banking on there being enough interest in those to make it a viable venture. However...let's look at some figures.

 

Taking the photogenesis area as £29.99 rrp.

 

Immediate deductions are as follows

  • Royalty to data supplier @ 25% = £7.50
  • Tax due to VAT @20% = £6.00
  • Given back in ES credits @ 5% = £1.50

Total subtractions = £15.00

 

Amount we get per sale = £14.99

 

I've ignored manufacturing costs and any time spent on supporting the products going forwards.Then of course we must pay personal tax and corporation tax, but I'll also ignore those too for the purpose of this explanation.These things do of course.all bite into our £14.99 profits but I don't want to over complicate it..

 

So now let's imagine Vikki and I were eligible for the UK minimum wage of £6.31 per hour and we were working a 40hr week ( quite an underestimate of the reality, but let's just imagine) 

 

Together we'd earn in 6mths on a minimum wage £13,124.80.  

 

The outcome of these quick calculations shows that we must sell at least 875 copies just to equal the same as we'd get on the UK minimum wage over 6mths. ( not the 9mths we've actually been at it)  We hope over time that we'll beat that of course and do a little better than a day job serving at McDonalds ;) , but the massive risk we're taking is that we won't.

 

I hope you'll all understand...We're not complaining, moaning or seeking your sympathies. It's been our own choice to do this, and whilst we're aware of the risks involved we are hopeful it'll all work out in the end. But we thought it might be of interest to your members to get another perspective on what influences our pricing decisions.

 

With Kindest regards

Darren & Vikki.

 

 

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Hi Darren,

 

For all the years I have known you and Vikki I have always admired your honesty and commitment, you deserve a decent return on your investment in time and research.

 

You could not have put it any clearer, I will certainly be trying the high resolution setup with 3D.

Here's to the success of ES and AutoGenesis. (I Can't believe it's being released at last!)

 

Cheers,

Joe

 

 

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Darren,  I do not think you need to justify your costing , certainly not to me. To be honest as I said earlier this is a brave venture and huge as well. I am just a little nervous for you, having seen how poorly the fsx uk stuff has been received ( i think the only profitable UK airport was Southampton) . I just wonder if you could have chosen something more commercial to tide you over as this bubbled away in the background.

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Hi Darren & Vikki,

+1 on what Joe has said above.

+1on what Nigel, has said also.

You certainly should not be having to justify what your percentage is from a sale. Only the tax man needs to know that. :)

Good luck with everything.

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With respect to FTX stuff, I wonder just how many photoscenery users are unaware that FTX airports can work very well with Horizon GenX (and probably Just Flight VFR Real). Sales of the smaller airfields have (apparently) not been as good as JV had hoped, but how many extra copies would have been sold if compatibility with UK photoscenery had been advertised from the start? I am no marketing expert, but I have always wondered if JV shot himself in the foot by sticking to the "we are only bothered about compatibility with FTX regions" line. Even suggesting the use of FTX airfields with UK photoscenery is actively discouraged on the ORBx forum. A stance that I find extremely difficult to understand.

 

That being the case, it is UK photoscenery users that are the target market here. I would be interested to know what the user ratio of UK photoscenery to ORBx FTX UK regions is.....

 

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With respect to FTX stuff, I wonder just how many photoscenery users are unaware that FTX airports can work very well with Horizon GenX (and probably Just Flight VFR Real). Sales of the smaller airfields have (apparently) not been as good as JV had hoped, but how many extra copies would have been sold if compatibility with UK photoscenery had been advertised from the start? I am no marketing expert, but I have always wondered if JV shot himself in the foot by sticking to the "we are only bothered about compatibility with FTX regions" line. Even suggesting the use of FTX airfields with UK photoscenery is actively discouraged on the ORBx forum. A stance that I find extremely difficult to understand.

 

That being the case, it is UK photoscenery users that are the target market here. I would be interested to know what the user ratio of UK photoscenery to ORBx FTX UK regions is.....

 

Chris, kevin and I have been saying this from day 1, I believe he was under threat of being banned from the FTX forums, as he created such a noise. It is quite clear that JV shot himself in the foot , this we have also voiced on several occasions, and now he has retreated to the US and and putting his toe in the water on  some of the Pacific Isles. It serves him right really ,with his brash (typically aussie) style of management. Apparently, from what I have gleaned, his style did not go down well with those that worked here for ftx, a few questioned his choice of UK airports , and suggested what they felt would be more commercially viable, but were told to get on with his choice.

As you know I am , in the main, a photoscenery user, however i have a hard drive ,with FSX, which is used only for FTX product testing , but this doesnt get anywhere near as much use as my fsx IFR (photoscenery) hard drive.

I would not be a bit surprised , when FTX have finished this global whatever stuff, that commercial pressure , may well be brought to bear on JV to either change his stance on photoscenery (as they must be missing out on 50% of the market place) or to stand aside and let the ship be lead by another chosen by the board.

Having done a quick add up I reckon that FSX have released 13 new airports this year plus 2 global products, plus a few regions, thats nearly 3 a month,, can the simming community support this level of releases?

 

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Sales = choice of product x compatibility x market size x perception of consumer whether product is value for money

I'm sure FTX England has sold lots of copies so it would be instructive if we knew what the mismatch between FTX Eng and UK airfields sales are, as it would highlight to some extent what parts of that equation are or are not a measure of why airfield sales are low. (But I suspect we won't ever know this precisely because of what might show, ie that JV's judgement is in error not the potential market size)

I'd be interested also to know what the age distribution across various UK market segments is, as I guess there are more older possibly retired people involved in our hobby?

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Sorry Andrew, we diverged a little yes from the original topic but they are interesting points around what factors consumers in our niche hobby take into account when purchasing addons and to what extents, including whether that changes significantly according to demographics. All that info may inform developers in determining if projects are worth doing and if so at what pricepoint. Perhaps you could move our more recent comments/discussion to a thread purely on that topic? Cheers K

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I can see why some might find this thread top heavy - particularly in respect to FTX versus photo-real coverage of the same area. From a personal and home-location perspective, I might say that FTX Wales is poor. I might drone on about the oilseed rape (canola) fields and the proliferation of trees by the coast, but that's because I know the area intimately. Therefore, photo scenery with fairly correctly located autogen, may very well suit me better.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy PNW. It's great - even adjusting the default missions can be fun! But I don't live there and can't make any direct comparisons.

So it's horses for courses.

Keeping personal feelings out of a discussion can be tricky. So far, the thread is good...

Cheers - Dai. :cool:

P.S. Is there a :old-git:emoticon, yet?

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