Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi all

Here is a link to a somewhat awesome display by a Swiss F-18...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqXKPQqfA4

I am left wondering.....the pilot does a kind of controlled flat spin while descending a number of times during the display.  How does one replicate that maneuver in flight sim with regards to control inputs and power settings...?  Any ideas...?

Thanks

Martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In something more conventional...  power-off stall, let a wing drop as it stalls, but keep the stick far enough back to not let the nose drop and break the stall - maybe a little power on the outboard engine.  In something like that, who knows?

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, allardjd said:

In something more conventional...  power-off stall, let a wing drop as it stalls, but keep the stick far enough back to not let the nose drop and break the stall - maybe a little power on the outboard engine.  In something like that, who knows?

John

Ok....I got something like it following your instructions.  It is a bit difficult to stall the F-18 though, what with all those high lift devices!  I will have another go on another aircraft.....

 

Thanks for your input!  ^_^

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at RIAT over the weekend and enjoyed the F-18 display, a truly awesome aircraft.

Personally I preferred the Eurofighter Typhoon display as it showed off the aircrafts amazing agility. Its turn radius is so impressive and every aspect of its display seemed smooth and effortless.

Another impressive aircraft was the A400M. Its take-off was just unbelievable. There was a collective intake of breath as the aircraft slowly climbed vertically off the runway, the crowd all thinking the same thing: "That can't happen, its going to crash! " But happen it did and crash it didn't.

One of the best highlights was a Romanian Mig 21 going through its paces, the aircraft is a 1953 design and it shows I suppose but it was fantastic to see this "old enemy" aircraft in the sky. The afterburner on this aircraft sent a visible blowtorch like flame out of the back of the aircraft half as long as the aircraft! At the end of the show I spoke to one of the crew who told me that Romania planed to keep its fleet of Mig 21s flying for another ten years. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RIAT shows off some of the worlds best pilots, and it proves that even older designs can still deliver spectacular shows.  I've still not managed to get there, ( The last RIAT I attended was at the now closed Greenham Common!) but Nigel Woolley posts plenty of vids on YouTube.  A thing I do tend to notice is that a lot of American built aircraft such as the F-16 and F-18 seem to be more "wrung out" by European crews than the US ones. One gets the impression that American displays  are slightly more reserved.  This could be due to the fact that both Switzerland and Finland are somewhat mountainous so agile flying is necessary, however the Dutch fly their F-16s in a similar manner and Holland is as flat as a pancake.  It's also noticeable if one watches the videos from the Mach Loop in Wales. The RAF tends to go through there at tree top height whereas the USAF generally take a higher line.  It's not a criticism by any means, just something you begin to notice having been aircraft watching for many years. I'm wondering if it's something in the USAF, USMC and USN training syllabus that makes their pilots somewhat more cautious.  If any of our American members can shed any light on the matter i'd be interested to hear their views.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that how American pilots fly in an air show may depend upon which American pilots are flying. Let me share a totally unexpected experience that I had many years ago while in the Marine Corps and watching the Blue Angels fly at Beaufort Air Station:

I worked in a two-story building at the air station that was located beside the end of a runway. Since the building had a flat roof, all the men in my unit decided to watch the air show from the roof. That gave us a great view of the runways. In the direction away from the runways, we couldn't see anything due to all of the nearby pine trees. We watched as the Blue Angels flew straight up in formation from the middle of the air base and did their fleur de lis maneuver, in which they fly off in all directions from the top of the maneuver and disappear over the horizon. While we continued to watch the middle of the air field, one of the Blue Angels unexpectedly came from behind us over the treetops and directly over the roof of our building. We didn't see it until it was directly on top of us. All of us just about came out of our boots. Believe me, that aircraft was low!

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the Americans seem more reserved in their flying.  I am from the UK originally and went to many RIATs and other shows.  I had seen the USAF fly the F-15 a few times, but they was a very conservative shows.  I went to Waddington one year and the Israelis flew the F-15 I and WOW.....they really showed how to fly it!  It put the American's to shame.

Other favorite displays have been the Su-27 Flankers and the MiG-29's.......happy days!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the difference is probably rule-based.  Some US military pilots were disciplined some time ago for busting minimums on a sports stadium flyover that looked pretty modest.  I think the brass hats keep the demo teams on a fairly short leash. 

I've seen the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds any number of times and also single ship demos of F-15 and F-14 (back in the day) and A-10, maybe some others I don't remember.   Of all of them, the F-14 put on the best show but, a) it was about 1982, I think, so different rules, and b) it was a clear, cloudless day with no ceiling.  Most of the other demos I've seen had some level of ceiling or at least scattered clouds that probably constrained what they could do somewhat.

My perceptions of...

- Loudest air show event - Blue Angels C-130 Fat Albert doing a JATO/RATO takeoff.

- Loudest air show take-off/flyover - B1 Lancer, going at the speed of heat  (Six Blue Angels FA-18s a close second - twice as many engines as the Thunderbirds doing the same thing in F-16s)

- Loudest sustained airshow event - Harrier in hover

If you really pay attention, the pre-main event for the Blue Angels is a demo of Fat Albert by her USMC crew and they REALLY horse that thing around, including steep bank turns at about 1-1/2 wingspans from terra firma, short field landings and takeoffs, backing up on the ground, etc.  It's just a warm-up for the FA-18s but they put on a pretty good show.  Of course, they're probably very lightly loaded when they do that, but still pretty impressive.

Haven't seen any demos by non-US military pilots except the Canadian Snowbirds, a long time ago.  Very precise and artistic, as I recall, but the aircraft they fly are not in the same performance category with 3rd and 4th generation fighter types.

An observation about the big name demo teams and something probably overlooked by most - in a typical show they do a number of routines that end up with four (or sometimes six) aircraft heading off in different directions at high speed, sometimes at different altitudes and attitudes.  Despite that, in 45 seconds, they're all back together, at the same speed and altitude, pointed in the same direction, positioned for the run-in to the field for the next maneuver.  That's a hell of a lot more difficult than most people realize and speaks to hours and hours of planning and practice.  All the teams I've seen seem do it equally well.

John

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, allardjd said:

An observation about the big name demo teams and something probably overlooked by most - in a typical show they do a number of routines that end up with four (or sometimes six) aircraft heading off in different directions at high speed, sometimes at different altitudes and attitudes.  Despite that, in 45 seconds, they're all back together, at the same speed and altitude, pointed in the same direction, positioned for the run-in to the field for the next maneuver.  That's a hell of a lot more difficult than most people realize and speaks to hours and hours of planning and practice.  All the teams I've seen seem do it equally well.

John

I agree, the big display teams are very impressive,  in Europe the main ones seem to be the Red Arrows, Patrouille de France, Frecce Tricolori and Los Alciones all with big formations. The biggest of all of course were The Black Arrows with their 22 Hunters, that huge formation made the largest formation display ever done by one unit, 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think my favorite team has to be The Blue Angels.....twin engined fighter jets and very agile.  While I have seen Fat Albert perform, it did not do a JATO.  I first saw the Blues at Finningley (UK) on a VERY overcast day many years ago.  I saw them again at Indianapolis about 9 years ago on a very sunny and very clear day.  Brilliant!

I saw the Thunderbirds at Waddington and must admit that I was not impressed at all.  As for the Red Arrows.....they are up there with the very top teams and continue to do so.  (How about some red Eurofighters???!!)  I still remember the red Gnat days.....

My BIGGEST regret of missing an airshow was the one at Finningley many years ago when the Russian Knights were there.....:cray:Oh well....I guess that is what YouTube is for!

 

Martin

Edited by Tristarcaptain
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

- Loudest air show event - Blue Angels C-130 Fat Albert doing a JATO/RATO takeoff.

- Loudest air show take-off/flyover - B1 Lancer, going at the speed of heat  (Six Blue Angels FA-18s a close second - twice as many engines as the Thunderbirds doing the same thing in F-16s)

- Loudest sustained airshow event - Harrier in hover

 

Being across the pond you wont have seen the Vulcan Bomber flying.  It is so loud that your ears cant cope with the noise and all the cars with alarms in the carpark at the runways end had them going off.

Sadly now a thing of the past.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll put in another contender (as I am originally from the UK too)...

How about the English Electric Lightning doing a mass stream take off.......(yes... I can remember that!)

More recently I was at Bruntingthorpe and was standing very close to the runway when a Lightning did a thunder run.  It literally hurt my ears!

Martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I pulled together a comparison with the best data I could find.  I'm pretty sure thrust does not necessarily equate to noise levels in a linear fashion but it's all I had.  Decibel levels are logarithmic, further muddying the waters; twice the sound energy is not perceived as twice as loud.  I suspect exhaust plumbing/duct configuration across different AC might be a factor too.

By this, the Thunderbirds  4-ship should be the loudest by a fair margin,   Having only experienced the first three in the table personally, at different times and probably with various levels of progressive hearing loss over the years, I have to say that my PERCEPTION of the sound levels does not line up with this very well.

Fat Albert taking off on rocket bottles is a different animal altogether and there's really no basis for comparison with the others except by actually measuring decibel levels in the real world.  It's not in the table below - apples and oranges.

  • Thunderbirds 4-ship - F-16 - P&W F100 @ 29,160 lbf (X 4 AC) = 116,400 lbf
  • Blue Angels 4-ship - FA-18A -  GE F404 @ 11,000 lbf (X 2 per AC) (X 4 AC) = 88,000 lbf
  • B-1B - GE F101 @ 17,390 lbf (X 4 per AC) - 69,560 lbf
  • Vulcan - Olympus 202 @ 17,000 lbf (X 4 per AC) = 68,000 lbf
  • English Electric Lightning - Avon 301R @ 12,530 lbf (X 2 per AC) = 25,060 lbf

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...