what a shambles!

[britfrog 180]

probably all in the uk have seen this but maybe not some of our foreign friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40knj0qg_Us

Whilst the statistics of getting a vulcan on to the DZ are amazing, as one of the pilots said monty python couldnt have dreamt up something better

what a ridiculous way to carry out a war!

A friend of mine Dave Southwood (at the time was CO of the empire test pilots school) told me that even when the harriers were heading south on the carriers none of them had been cleared to live fire a sidewinder missile!! and he and his oppos were flying 10 hours a day firing sidewinders from a test plane from all angles of attack to ensure they could be fired without getting a home goal.

Another snippet given to me at the time was that one squadron on one of the carriers had sidewinders the other had nothing but the first squadron was refusing to share them with the other and it want till the first sea lord got involved that they were forced to share, simply unreal, and they were both on the same team.

[hurricanemk1c 195]

Well, Rowland White's 'Vulcan 607' gives the reasons why the Vulcans were used with the Victors. The Buccanneers didn't carry enought engine oil, and the Tornado was too new. Only by this inverted pyrimid was 21 bombs able to be put on the runway or near. The Harriers would have been decimated if they had attacked (the bomb trajectory needed the aircraft to fly above about 7000ft) and afterwards had the runway not been put out. It was a Monty Python effort, but it worked.

As for the Sidewinder issue, didn't know about that - adds a new aspect to the war.

Re-watching that documentry, there's a few things missing. First, Dick Russell was from 55 Sqn - Victors. He was the AARI (Air-to-Air Refuelling Instructor), attached to the Vulcan squadrons. They missed that Bigland's probe broke in the storm, which made Tuxford re-fuel and, amongst other things, no INS installation worries or the way the attack changed from a 300ft down the runway attack to a classic 10,000ft 35degree cut. Some nice footage though!

[britfrog 180]

for info on Dave look at www.hunterteam.com

another issue about sidewinders not reported was that they hurriedly fitted them to the vulcan however they had never fired any so when they went south they had a trial in straight and level flight in the uk, however what would happen if they released the missile in a high g turn was anyones guess with that hugh wing there was an area of turbulence which the sidewinder might fall into and attack its launcher, also due to the vulcans large radar signature it wasnt guaranteed if the sidewinder would stay locked on to its primary target if a larger target presented itself.

[allardjd 1,853]

...due to the vulcans large radar signature...

I think you meant heat signature. Sidewinder is an IR seeker, not radar. Do you know if they were using the 9L all-aspect AIM-9s or an earlier Mark? I guess those would be more deadly to the firing AC if upset - they'll lock onto airframe heat.

There was one small lot of semi-active radar seeker AIM-9s build but were exclusively used by the US Navy and didn't ever get built in large numbers.

John

[britfrog 180]

I stand corrected, finger trouble,I should have said heat signature, I have heard a few times the growl of a sidewinder whilst back seating in a tornado on a jollie per se , and would not be happy if i knew it was not just a simulation, because they are good.

[allardjd 1,853]

...because they are good.

Amen to that. I guess if you're very good and are having a lucky day you can defeat one, but it's not something to be depended upon.

John