Help please! NDB Problem

[DougW 2]

Hi There

 

First, a bit of background.  I have been a daily visitor to the Hangar for a few years now.   Always enjoy being both informed and entertained in your relaxed and friendly atmosphere.  I guess like a lot of simmers who visit, not posting is due to feeling that I haven't had anything of value to contribute to items from your well informed regular posters.   I have on the other hand many, many, flight sim questions that I would like answered.  So here goes.

 

 As a retiree, I am able to spend/waste as much time as I want (depending on point of view) learning what  I can about various aspects of the sim.  I really enjoy the challenges associated with the flying part (GA only so far),  but every bit as immersing, challenging and time consuming is trying to understand and apply the numerous background configuration/operation areas of the sim (FSX settings, aircraft, panel, gauges etc etc).   Which leads to the reason for the post.

 

 A few days ago I set up a "Plan-G" UK flight from Dundee to Blackpool.  The flight terminated with a procedure turn and NDB approach (BPL-318.00) to Rwy10 at Blackpool (EGNH).  Unfortunately when I got within range of the airport no signal was picked up by the A/C RMI gauge.  I tried twice more (slow learner), flying from different adjacent airports with the same result.  To confirm that the RMI gauge was operating OK, I checked out some other UK airports where I have previously used NDB's (EGEO, EGPE, EGPI, EGNS) and I received a signal at all of them.

 

 I have gone through the general and scenery forums here (and other sites) looking for a similar issue but no joy.  Looking at some Hangar posts I came to the conclusion that the problem/answer might lie in a .bgl file.  (Bgl files -  a mystery and new learning curve).   Found and downloaded some excellent applications that enabled me to locate and view the contents of the related airport .bgl files.

 

 I checked the EGNH.bgl file in the FSX scenery folder and the airport contained an NDB Approach Section for Rwy10.  The NDB details were also registered in the associated NVX0501.bgl file, so far so good.  As I use Orbx UK-Eng-Sco-Wls scenery I also checked the .bgl files in the related Orbx folder and found that the EGNH file in Orbx also contained an NDB Approach Section for Rwy10.  I disconnected Orbx scenery and flew to EGNH and received a signal on the RMI gauge.  I reconnected the Orbx scenery and once again no signal.  I picked EGEO for a cross check and just to complicate things, found something even stranger, as neither "FSX", "Orbx" or "ScotFlight For Orbx" .bgl's had NDB Approach Sections for the airport but I receive a signal there with both FSX and Orbx.

 

I am obviously missing something basic regarding how navaids like NDB's are called/activated and would really appreciate it if someone could point me in the direction of some information that might help me understand what is happening.

 

Some location details for the related airport .bgl files.

 

Airport

Developer

Area/Folder

.Bgl File

QMID

NDB Appr

RMI

EGNH - Blackpool

FSX

0501

APX47120

9,188,51

Y - R10

Y

Orbx

Orbx_Eng

. .\ADE ._._. EGNH

9,188,51

Y - R10

N

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EGEO - Oban

FSX

0501

APX46110

9,186,47

N

Y

Orbx

Orbx_Sco

. .\ADE ._._. EGEO

9,186,47

N

Y

ScotFlight

ScotFlight

. .\000_Oban_NorthConnel

9,186,47

N

Y

 

Apologies if this seems a bit long winded but not sure how else to describe it.

 

 

Thank you

Doug Weir

[brett 2,315]

Hi Doug, the first thing I would add here is that according to John Allard's FSX airport plates the BPL NDB is 420 KHz and that is backed up by what I found on PlanG. Not sure why it is so far off from the NATS approach charts which is indeed 318 KHz. I don't believe ORBX/FTX changes the NAV data.

[allardjd 1,853]

Brett is correct. The frequency of BPL in FS is 420 KHz, not 318 KHz.

 

 

 

This is a great illustration of the growing problems we all face with using real-world publications (charts, approach plates, airport diagrams, flight planners, etc.) for simulator flying. Increasingly, the real world is diverging from our circa 2006 flight sim world.

 

I have no doubt that BPL was once 420 KHz in the real world but for some reason the authorities changed it.

 

John

 

EDIT:

 

I just did a search and the BPL frequency was changed in the real world on July 2nd, 2008 because of problems with interference from Belfast City NDB (ID = HB), which shared the same frequency. You'll note that the date of the change is a couple of years after the publication of FSX, so FSX was correct at the time it was published.

 

The lesson here is beware real-world sources for flight sim flying. This is PRECISELY the reason I have made a mega-project out of producing FS-based airport diagrams.

 

JDA

[DougW 2]

Hi Brett & John

Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this for me.  I parked at EGNH and dialled in 420 KHz, worked a treat, so I think that has solved my problem with EGNH.

 

John, I have some of your US airport charts but had previously found and downloaded the all colour, all singing and dancing UK airport and approach charts from the NATS site and have been using them for some time now.  Must be more cautious in future.  Having sorted out the NDB frequency problem for me though, has lead to a supplementary question regarding the map images you have attached.  Are they from Plan-G?

 

I only recently got into using Plan-G v3.1.3 (excellent product) and use the MapQuest OSM map provider, as none of the other Non-Subscription versions appear to work at any zoom level I set for the map.  My Plan-G map shows the 318 KHz frequency for BPL as per the plan image below.  It also shows the 318 KHz frequency on the NDB icon at the airport.  Would you please advise how/where I can access the map you are using. 

 

 

 

Once again thank you both for your help

Doug Weir

 

Edit

Not sure how I managed it but I seem to have two map images and am a bit reluctant to try and truncate the link code as I am not sure where the string ends, sorry about that.

[allardjd 1,853]

Hi, Doug,

 

The first image is from Plan-G, version 3.1.2.101.

 

The second image is from the SkyVector site - great charts there but they reflect the RW. I grabbed an image from there to illustrate what's at the RW Blackpool.

 

Like you, I have the MapQuest OSM option selected for the Plan-G maps and mine obviously shows the correct (for FS) 420 KHz frequency.

 

Have you run the "Build Navigation Database" utility in Plan-G, under the top-line "Data" tab? That's how Plan-G learns what's in your version of FS, including any add-on scenery you might have installed. If you haven't done that, it may be the reason you are getting a RW value for the NDB instead of what's in FS.

 

I can't hope to match the quality and eye appeal of some of the charts published for the real world - the UK ones are some of the best. However, mine will always match what you find in FS - theirs, kind'a, sort'a, maybe, a lot of the time. Choose your poison.

 

John

[DougW 2]

Hi John

More thanks and another problem solved. I ran the "Build Navigation Database" button as suggested and now have the Blackpool NDB showing the 420 KHz value.  I must add that I have run the database update twice before, 1-When I installed the plan and 2- When I thought I had stuffed something up (not unusual).  It must be me and computers.  I will take heed of your comments regarding the difference in RW charts and FSX as I think it may have a bearing on some of the issues I have when navigating VOR to VOR especially in the PNW area.  But that is another story and perhaps one of my many other questions sometime down the track.

Cheers

Doug Weir

[allardjd 1,853]

...and perhaps one of my many other questions sometime down the track.

 

 

Ask away, Doug.  If someone here doesn't know the answer we'll be proud to make up a lie. 

 

Again, welcome aboard.  It's always good to have another participating member who's using FS beyond simply drilling holes in the sky.

 

Be sure to check out the MEBAR event, coming up soon.  

 

John

[brett 2,315]

Doug, I have edited you post so that only one map appears.

 

Welcome to the forums here at Mutley's Hangar and thanks for the brain tease, they are always welcome.

[DougW 2]

Hi John and Brett
As a sort of post script:-

I am always reminded that it is usually something I have done (or not done) that causes most of my Flight Sim problems.  As a result of your input a light went on and I remembered that I had found and installed R/W MagDev and Waypoint updates a couple of weeks ago (Herve Sors site) .  Not really understanding the relationship between R/W data and FSX data and the impact of the disconnect, I went ahead with the install.  Probably the root cause of my Blackpool NDB issue!  Just a Murphy's Law coincidence that I picked Blackpool at random to plan a flight or I might never have known about it.  In the meantime, I have restored the default scenery until I can get my head around where all the navigation related components are looking for their information (FSX, Orbx, ADF, GTN750, Plan-G etc).
 
John, I have been re-reading some of your previous posts re: Waypoints now that I have a better idea/understanding of what you were describing and will play around with trying to edit and insert my own updates into FSX.  Must also not forget to go flying.
 
Appreciate all your input.  Your approach to providing assistance has reinforced my decision to use Mutley's Hangar to expose my lack of knowledge and air a request for help.  Will now feel a lot less anxious about the next one.
 
Cheers
Doug Weir

[bilirubin 50]

Hi Doug and a belated welcome.

 

Having been to Blackpool I am guessing Plan G was doing you a favour, just keep going and don't look back  

 

Mike  

[DougW 2]

Hi Mike
Thank you for the welcome.  From your comment about Blackpool, I guess things might have changed a bit since my wife and I spent a very nice 7 days there on our honeymoon (1967).  Some fond memories, as it was a full on fun filled experience back then for a couple of young small town hicks from the west of Scotland.
 
Cheers
Doug Weir

[allardjd 1,853]

...to use Mutley's Hangar to expose my lack of knowledge and air a request for help.  Will now feel a lot less anxious about the next one.

 

 

No worries, Doug, as they say in your neck of the woods.  MH is a pretty friendly place and there are a lot of folks here who seem to always be willing to jump in and help someone who's struggling.  As for lack of knowledge, every one of us has some gaps in our FS learning, topics where we're not really up to speed.  We all depend on help from others from time to time, so nothing to be anxious about.  

 

One of the great things about the flight sim community in general is what seems to be a nearly across-the-board willingness of flight simmers to help one another.  It's a fine bunch of people we've chosen to rub elbows with, both on this site and more broadly.

 

John