Airbus E-Fan Crosses Channel!

[MartinW 0]

Nice work Airbus. Apparently the E-Fan costs as little as £10 an hour to fly.

Unfortunately for Airbus though, it seems French pilot, Hugues Duval, beat them to the record by flying not just one way but back again! Seems he may have cheated though.

 

A plane powered only by lithium batteries has successfully crossed the Channel, from Lydd Airport in Kent to Calais.

Pilot Didier Estyene's E-Fan plane was airborne for around 40 minutes.

However, it is understood that another French pilot, Hugues Duval, may have beaten him to the record of the first cross-Channel flight in an electric-powered plane, flying from Calais to England and back again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33473969

[Corsaire31 419]

Hugues Duval has done it with an electric Cricri, which is difficult to compare with the Airbus E-Fan.

 

 

There is also the "no fair-play" story that the plane builder from Slovenia Pipistrel Aircraft was ready to do the crossing three days before with his Alpha Electro. It was forbidden by Siemens who makes the electric engine to fly above the sea, which is kind of strange when you know that Siemens is also selling the electric engine of the Airbus E-Fan.

 

Pipistrel wrote :

 

" Pipistrel aircraft Alpha Electro has twice the range of the competitor E-fan and one third of its announced price. The biggest advantage is probably the availability: it is already possible to order and very shortly receive the Alpha Electro - but maybe not with a Siemens motor anymore. " 

 

Whole story and statement at : http://www.pipistrel.si/news/electric-crosschannel-flight-official-statement

 

 

[dodgy-alan 1,587]

I feel gutted for Pipistrelle, something stinks about Siemans behaviour, I can't help wondering if Airbus were not behind Siemens actions in some way, a bit of industrial espionage to make sure it was Airbus that got the glory as it were.

[allardjd 1,853]

Of course Bleriot did it in 1909. Thirty some odd miles in an electric airplane carrying one person and no useful load is an interesting milestone but it has a long, long way to go to be remotely practical, useful or economic. I note the £10 price but I suspect that most microlights could do it for about the same, even with Europe and the UK's artificially inflated fuel prices. If you consider the cost of the aircraft and batteries vs. a microlight, this is no bargain.

It's early days yet, and this kind of tomfoolery is probably necessary to get there but when someone can sell a four seat electric airplane with about 1,200 lbs of useful load, a 500+ mile range, a 100+ knot cruising speed and the ability to re-charge in 20 minutes or less for, say $250,000 or less, I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, it's moderately interesting but not all that earth-shaking.

John

[MartinW 0]

I feel gutted for Pipistrelle, something stinks about Siemans behaviour, I can't help wondering if Airbus were not behind Siemens actions in some way, a bit of industrial espionage to make sure it was Airbus that got the glory as it were.

Nah, probably not. Just looking at his contrivance in regard to crossing the channel is enough to give anyone a brown trousers day.

If I were Siemans, I'd be troubled by my product crossing the Atlantic in that too. The E-Fan undoubtedly has lots of fancy kit to ease any concerns Siemans might have.

Looks like he cheated anyway, as he used a conventional aircraft some of the way... or something like that. Detail's still to emerge.

[MartinW 0]

Of course Bleriot did it in 1909. Thirty some odd miles in an electric airplane carrying one person and no useful load is an interesting milestone but it has a long, long way to go to be remotely practical, useful or economic. I note the £10 price but I suspect that most microlights could do it for about the same, even with Europe and the UK's artificially inflated fuel prices. If you consider the cost of the aircraft and batteries vs. a microlight, this is no bargain.

It's early days yet, and this kind of tomfoolery is probably necessary to get there but when someone can sell a four seat electric airplane with about 1,200 lbs of useful load, a 500+ mile range, a 100+ knot cruising speed and the ability to re-charge in 20 minutes or less for, say $250,000 or less, I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, it's moderately interesting but not all that earth-shaking.

John

Yep, absolutely. The E-Fan is merely an experimental machine. As you say, just a baby step toward greater things. As we said in the other thread, the E-Fan is a step on the way to a hybrid that will ultimately be more efficient than the aircraft we have now. So you won't get the super efficient all electric machine you mention until battery technology markedly improves. It'll be a hybrid the next step. Ultimately Airbus are aiming for a hybrid-electric regional airliner or helicopter.

 

In a second stage, the E-Aircraft System House aims to develop the equipment and sub-systems for increased power levels and integrate a complete hybrid propulsion system into a hybrid ground demonstrator with a representative power level for short-range aircraft.

http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/innovation-environment/airbus-e-fan-the-future-of-electric-aircraft/e-aircraft-roadmap.html

E-Thrust.

 

Airbus Group begins work with Rolls-Royce on distributed electrical aerospace propulsion (DEAP). This results in the E-Thrust hybrid concept for a future airliner with significantly reduced CO2 and NOx emissions, as well as dramatically lowered noise levels. In this concept several electrically-powered fans are distributed in clusters along the wing span.

 

 

 

 

[allardjd 1,853]

...be more efficient than the aircraft we have now. 

 

 

That's pretty much what engineers do.  On the other hand, efficiency is only one touchstone for technical achievement.  Performance is another and almost always, the most efficient is not  the best performing option - often it's the worst.  A moped is more efficient than the most efficient automobile, but people keep buying automobiles too.

 

The folks with the deep wallets who are not trying to make a profit by selling tickets to others and for whom fuel cost is not a big obstacle, including governments, will opt for performance over efficiency every time.  I doubt Cameron or Branson or Madonna or algore worry much about the fuel burn of their bizjets even when they claim they do.  I know our President doesn't worry about his.

 

John

[MartinW 0]

I doubt Cameron or Branson or Madonna or algore worry much about the fuel burn of their bizjets even when they claim they do. I know our President doesn't worry about his.

A moped is more efficient than the most efficient automobile, but people keep buying automobiles too.

And more and more of us are prioritising economy over performance these day.

Cameron, Branson, Madonna might not, but the airlines do, and we do when we pay our ticket price. Rather a lot of passengers happily fly around in slow but efficient Dash 8 Q400's and similar. We also fly around in big jets that have had rather a lot of effort put into making them as efficient as possible to the detriment of speed. I mean we all know how airlines love to save fuel by limiting speed don't we. They love their low cost index entries in their FMC's.

Yep, I dare say that ultimately hybrids will provide us with a sensible balance between efficiency and performance.

But as fuel prices increase, and as emission continue, and as environmental concerns mount up, the balance will continue to edge toward efficiency as a priority. And ultimately if technology comes to our rescue and kindly gifts us with awesome performance plus undreamt of fuel economy, all the better.

We seem to be seeing something like that on the road now. Excellent performance, rapid acceleration, but excellent miles per gallon too. From hybrids and turbo diesels.

[allardjd 1,853]

Cameron, Branson, Madonna might not, but the airlines do, and we do when we pay our ticket price.

 

 

That's why I prefaced it with...

 

...who are not trying to make a profit by selling tickets to others and for whom fuel cost is not a big obstacle...

 

 

[MartinW 0]

The folks with the deep wallets who are not trying to make a profit by selling tickets to others and for whom fuel cost is not a big obstacle, including governments, will opt for performance over efficiency every time.

Yes they will, the privilege of wealth. And the folks with the deep wallets are a minority. So it matters not so much what they favour. The majority of the population have smaller wallets. The vast majority aren't celebrities, and we don't run governments. Thus, for the vast majority of us low cost is where it's at. Thus the product we buy will be slower and more fuel efficient, performance takes second place.

Lets just say that these days, the vast majority of us are heading more toward the moped side of your transport curve than the Ferrari side. We need "adequate" performance for our needs, but all the fuel economy we can grab! And that's precisely what companies like Airbus with their E-Fan projects are trying to achieve.

[Corsaire31 419]

Yep, absolutely. The E-Fan is merely an experimental machine. As you say, just a baby step toward greater things. As we said in the other thread, the E-Fan is a step on the way to a hybrid that will ultimately be more efficient than the aircraft we have now. So you won't get the super efficient all electric machine you mention until battery technology markedly improves. It'll be a hybrid the next step. Ultimately Airbus are aiming for a hybrid-electric regional airliner or helicopter. 

 

 

 

From what I've read so far, the next step is to build a two seater (side by side) which could be sold by the end of 2017  ( what Pipistrel Aircraft is already selling today with their Alpha Electro ) The aim seems to be the market of pilot schools and glider towing. Estimates are said to be 21.000 planes worldwide by 2017.

[allardjd 1,853]

Estimates are said to be 21.000 planes worldwide by 2017.

 

 

That must be estimated by the same folks who believe Greece will stop living beyond their means and will pay back what the EU is giving lending them, that Iran is not striving for nuclear weapons and that Microsoft Flight was going to be a great marketing coup.  I don't think it's tobacco they're smoking.  

 

John

[dodgy-alan 1,587]

The next thing is the rubber powered 300 seat chuck glider! It sits on a launch ramp that ends at Heathrow but actually starts at Lands End, along it's 200 mile length is a giant bungee cord! the aircraft is hooked on in Cornwall and then dragged back by tractors to Heathrow where it locks into place, once loaded, the passengers are strapped into their seats and someone relaeses the safety pin, the aircraft then launches down the ramp and glides across the Atlantic where the crew then aim to come down somwhere near New York! A similar ramp is being built across new York State so that it can be flown back!

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

Sounds like a perfect application for my theoretical Extensible Cup and String Eco friendly EM Free communication system.

It operates via String Theory.

[allardjd 1,853]

Fatally flawed, unless the tractors are nuclear powered, in which case their routing will have to be through low population density, non-NIMBY areas, via Scotland and the Shetlands.

 

John

[Corsaire31 419]

 

Estimates are said to be 21.000 planes worldwide by 2017.

 

 

 

That must be estimated by the same folks who believe Greece will stop living beyond their means and will pay back what the EU is giving lending them, that Iran is not striving for nuclear weapons and that Microsoft Flight was going to be a great marketing coup.  I don't think it's tobacco they're smoking.  

 

John

 

 

Sorry my bad reading of the report, after checking the 21.000 planes figure refers to the next 10 years... 

[MartinW 0]

Yep, absolutely. The E-Fan is merely an experimental machine. As you say, just a baby step toward greater things. As we said in the other thread, the E-Fan is a step on the way to a hybrid that will ultimately be more efficient than the aircraft we have now. So you won't get the super efficient all electric machine you mention until battery technology markedly improves. It'll be a hybrid the next step. Ultimately Airbus are aiming for a hybrid-electric regional airliner or helicopter.

 

From what I've read so far, the next step is to build a two seater (side by side) which could be sold by the end of 2017  ( what Pipistrel Aircraft is already selling today with their Alpha Electro ) The aim seems to be the market of pilot schools and glider towing. Estimates are said to be 21.000 planes worldwide by 2017.

Yep, I read that too. In fact I believe Airbus have plans to build a factory in southwest France to build the two seat version. They are breaking ground next year. They expect it to enter production in late 2017 or early 2018. 21,000 sales over the next 10 years seems very feasible to me. Over that ten years battery technology should improve tremendously. After the E-Fan 2.0, there will be an even better E-Fan 4.0. E-Fan 4.0 is expected to be equipped with the new 260KW Siemens motor. 5 times more powerful than previous motors and it only weighs 100 pounds. Siemens are testing it later this year. Airbus are investing 20 million euros.

Actually I should have said "significant step" rather than the next baby step, my apologies. My comment to John was meant to convey that he won't see his "ideal highly capable" all electric before a hybrid version arrives. It will take longer than that to provide us with the required battery technology. Unless there's an unexpected breakthrough of course.

There are some pretty amazing battery technologies still in the lab, but they aren't ready for production yet. Like the structural battery for example. The structure of the vehicle IS the battery. Thus saving considerable weight. Tesla do something similar of course, all be it more primitively in that the Tesla Roadster battery is part of the vehicles structure. If they removed the battery, extra structural support would be required.

There's also been a breakthrough recently in regard to aluminium-air batteries, with 40 times the capacity of lithium ion. Lithium ion capacity has now also doubled in the lab. Then we have the grapheme super capacitor batteries that will store phenomenal amounts of energy. So there's plenty to be excited about in the lab.

[Corsaire31 419]

The 21.000 over 10 years are not the expected sales but the global worldwide market. Sorry my post was not really clear... 

[MartinW 0]

Naughty boy. I was basing my new turbo electric nano tech zero point energy electro super plane on those figures. I have it partly built in my shed.

It utilises the new particle discovered at the LHC, pentaquarks. But that's a secret.

[Corsaire31 419]

Since I have myself no plan to enter the aircraft business in the next coming years, I obviously have been reading these news and writing my post too quickly...