Landing the Carenado 208 cargomaster

[UKJim 502]

Hi,

I have tried landing this twice by using the figures in the manual. It says for typical landing:

Full flaps

78-80 knots

Throttle required to idle

So I set full flaps, speed down to about 90-100 knots! That apparently is too fast so I idled the throttle and both times the descent was too steep and I basically fell out the sky - not smooth at all!

Anyone experience this and where do you think I'm going wrong?

Cheers

Jim

[stu7708 244]

It's been a while since I flew that model, but as far as i remember I had the same issue as you if I pulled the throttle to far back.

And since the turbine engine reacts slower to added power than other engines you need to keep a close eye on your airspeed and try to stay ahead of things.

The key is to find that sweetspot where you have just enough power to keep you on the glide path, and the only way to find it is by training and more training.

[UKJim 502]

Yeah I will keep on with it bcuz its my nxt plane in AH

I tried reducing throttle little by little trying to keep 80knots but as soon as I approach 80 it drops!

Im not giving up tho as its a neat plane, the red lever is usually mixture, I fly in this plane with that set in the middle, shud it b fully forward for landing do you know?

[allardjd 1,853]

With full flaps you'll have to carry some significant amount of power down the glide slope and begin reducing it as you cross the fence. Chop it all the way as you begin the flare and keep adding back pressure without ballooning until it stalls or settles in. Getting a full stall before touchdown with full flaps is kind of difficult and not really necessary.

Also, pay attention to CG when you're loading. Sometimes the first place an out-of-limits CG will bite is on the landing approach.

[UKJim 502]

With full flaps you'll have to carry some significant amount of power down the glide slope and begin reducing it as you cross the fence. Chop it all the way as you begin the flare and keep adding back pressure without ballooning until it stalls or settles in. Getting a full stall before touchdown with full flaps is kind of difficult and not really necessary.

Also, pay attention to CG when you're loading. Sometimes the first place an out-of-limits CG will bite is on the landing approach.

I'll have to have a few more tries and take note of the numbers on a successful landing! I think if I go in at 90ish knots then when I flare go idol it should touch down at bout 80! This is what I'm going to try anyway hehe

Thanks John (again)

[Tim_A 997]

Don't chop the throttle in the Caravan -- it'll drop like a rock (unless that's what you want of course). As with all turbines, changes in power take time to come online, so you have to think much further ahead of the aeroplane than in a piston aircraft. It's not hard to get a stable descent at 80kts; it just takes practice. Slow down before you start your final descent -- it's much harder to slow down while you are descending.

Also, as John said, pay attention to the C of G, particularly if you have a full load. AH's loading regime is none too clever in that respect and can easily put you out of limits. Better to do the loading manually in those cases.

BTW, the red lever is 'Condition'. It should be set to Low Idle (mid point detent) on the ground and while taxying, and High Idle (fully forward) for take off and throughout the flight.

[UKJim 502]

Ah ok I did some more practice last night and was not too bad. Slowed down to 90-100knots then when I flared it dropped to below 80knots! This is ok for now I think!

I will try and look at CG make sure im in limits!

The condition lever I have fully forward when flying but I do have one question... In normal piston I can pull condition lever out to reduce fuel flow and get better mileage; does the caravan do this automatically?

Thanks for the tips guys I appreciate the help! I'm normally only ever in piston single props so turbines and larger planes are a bit foreign to me.

Thanks,

Jim

[allardjd 1,853]

Condition levers are unique to turbines. Mixture is unique to piston engines. They are entirely different things, performing a different function and are used differently. Do not attempt to "lean" a turbine in flight. As Tim says, keep the condition lever all the way forward.

Though it's not a 100% accurate analogy, you can think of the condition lever as an adjustable idle stop. In flight the idle is set higher so that you cannot retard power beyond a certain point. That's partly to prevent the ram air effect in flight from "blowing out" the flame in the combustors, i.e. a "flame-out". There's more to it than that but that's a good way to think of it.

John

[UKJim 502]

Confusion over - I'm new to planes and don't no much about the in's and out's etc

I'm self taught regarding flight sim and all I know has been trial and error or small amount of googling

Thanks for clearing that John! Makes sense!

[Tim_A 997]

No, a condition lever only has three settings - high, low and cutoff. It isn't continuously variable like the mixture lever in a piston plane. Turbines work completely differently to piston engines, and the only real commonality between the levers is that the fully aft position is the fuel cutoff position, and they have a red knob on the end.

Sometimes the 'high idle' and 'low idle' positions are called 'flight idle' and 'ground idle', although I think that is mostly a military thing.

[UKJim 502]

Oh ok nice one! I attempted a landing today using the help u guys gave and managed to fly at 80 knots land without a bump!

Thanks once again!

Jim

[TedG 0]

Sometimes the 'high idle' and 'low idle' positions are called 'flight idle' and 'ground idle', although I think that is mostly a military thing.

Pilatus PC-12/47 comes to mind.

And for UKJim.....How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

"Practice baby.....practice"

On the plus side aside from anticipating the turbine "lag" on approach the C208 is really quite forgiving.

[UKJim 502]

Sometimes the 'high idle' and 'low idle' positions are called 'flight idle' and 'ground idle', although I think that is mostly a military thing.

Pilatus PC-12/47 comes to mind.

And for UKJim.....How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

"Practice baby.....practice"

On the plus side aside from anticipating the turbine "lag" on approach the C208 is really quite forgiving.

Yeah I have been practicing using some air hauler flights and I seemed to land just fine now 99% of the time! I found Tim's comment the most helpful - slowing down well in time!

It's now my new favourite plane!

[Tim_A 997]

Some time ago, while I was out in New Zealand, I got to have a go in one of the big 737 simulators they have out there One thing that the instructor said that has always stuck (it was being applied to the 737, but it applies to a lot of other planes too): " You can either go down, or slow down. But not both."

[UKJim 502]

Some time ago, while I was out in New Zealand, I got to have a go in one of the big 737 simulators they have out there One thing that the instructor said that has always stuck (it was being applied to the 737, but it applies to a lot of other planes too): " You can either go down, or slow down. But not both."

That's cool and true

[Simon Marshall 0]

The Caravan's particular about landing. Below 5lbs of Torque you'll drop from the sky. From memory this a because the prop flattens so much that you get the same effect as as an engine failure. This is evidently modeled correctly on the real aircraft.

RW Pilots (well one) that use this feature on purpose. From memory "Do everything at 120kts Stay high and drop full flaps. At 1 miles from the threshold cut the throttle and dive in using this effect and aircraft angle of attack to ideally touchdown at 80kts and looking like a pro".

I used to fly the Caravan like a standard aircraft keeping out of this 'negative thrust' zone. But with questionable CoG or light loads it can be hard as you can have speed control/flare problems. Flying the way described does actually work. It's knowing when to make the final dive in that's key.

Fly it like you stole it.

[Tim_A 997]

This is evidently modeled correctly on the real aircraft.

Wotcher!

Nice to know RW is keeping up with the sim....

Fly it like you stole it.

Are you trying to tell us something?

[Simon Marshall 0]

Wotcher!

Nice to know RW is keeping up with the sim....

Wotcher... Everytime I hear/see that I wanna reply with "all right 'arry"

Still around, but only lurking. 5 Pireps logged this month. And 1 leg of the round the world trip.

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Fly it like you stole it.

Are you trying to tell us something?

Err, well, you know..... Maybe fly it like you hired it? After all there is nothing faster then a hire car

[Tim_A 997]

That's 5 more than me! LOL

I see your landings are still up to scratch:

[Simon Marshall 0]

That's right Mike, it's a reciprocating engine with an turbo charger. And they have a mixture lever. Unless you fly a cub that is.

Caravan's have a small jet engine with a prop attached. The Engine (fuel control unit) controls the fuel flow. While you could fly around in ground idle it'll take longer to spool up to speed. And wouldn't use any less fuel when the throttle lever is out of idle.

With a mixture lever you can affect the fuel/air mixture anywhere in the flight, even on the ground. Not that that would be a good idea You cannot directly effect the fuel mixture in a turbine engine except by changing speed or altitude as the FCU does it for you.

Interesting, but useless fast about the Caravan engine (PT6-A) it's facing the wrong way around. The intake is facing the pilot. Pointless question : Why is this. Added point's for off the wall answers.

Here's the operating manual for the PT6-A http://www.pwc.ca/fi...w_your_PT6A.pdf

@Tim,

I'm about to gain 'favored customer' status with Square 1 Parachutes. Buying in bulk does work.

[Tim_A 997]

RW, leaning the mixture on the ground often is a good thing. At high density altitudes, it's necessary just to develop sufficient power for take off ( or the engine could even suffer a rich cut). Even at low altitudes, leaning on the ground will prevent detonation and plug fouling. ( been there, done that)

[Simon Marshall 0]

Good point. I was thinking of overheating.

A balancing act I guess.

Plus 90% of my flights are in the UK. Effectively at sea level.

And I'm often given priority for a take off. I was once told it was something to do with safety and that "We don't want a crash here". One day I'll hang around long enough to find out what they mean