MartinW 0 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 philae had a turn on problem last night. Systems were turned off and back on again and she fired up nicely. They think they know what happened and are modifying the start up procedure for tonight. Commands are uploaded ready for switch on. Separation from Rosetta is at 9:03 GMT tonight. Decent will take 7 hours. http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/ Chances of success rated at 75%. Nature article. http://www.nature.com/news/landing-on-a-comet-a-guide-to-rosetta-s-perilous-mission-1.16314?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews Graphical guide to the landing. http://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/7.21637.1415643194!/image/nature-rosetta-mission-control.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/nature-rosetta-mission-control.jpg Cumulative distance Rosetta travelled... 6.4 billion kilometres. FAQ's... http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Rosetta/Frequently_asked_questions Link to post Share on other sites
britfrog 180 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 excuse my skepticism but just what incredible increase in man's knowledge is the billions spent on this escapade going supply? is it going to cure the worlds pollution? perhaps supply water to those without in Africa, will it remove all religions thus making the world a safer place? no , I fear it will simply confirm that what we already know, it is a piece of rock in an orbit and the small chunk they break off for examination will no doubt give some idea to when the universe was created, the day before adam and eve stepped foot on earth? instead of this little jolly they could have thrust 1% of the budget into my grubbies and I would have given them all the answers they needed, this money could have been better spent forcing the pharmaceuticals to supply cures for things rather than temporary remedies. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 excuse my skepticism but just what incredible increase in man's knowledge is the billions spent on this escapade going supply? Well, if I may... if we all had that attitude we would still be living in caves. You could say the same about the Large Hadron Collider, or any scientific endeavour. Benefits often come further down the road. For example, the benefits from the Apollo mission have been significant. Materials like Teflon, right up to the silicone chip that has revolutionised our world. To you, Rosetta's prime objective, to understand the origin and evolution of the Solar System, may mean nothing. Understanding the composition of the pre-solar nebula out of which the Sun and the planets of the Solar System formed, more than 4.6 billion years ago, may mean nothing. Acquiring essential information to understand how the Solar System formed, may be pointless to you, but I can assure you that without such fundamental research we would be running around in animal skins, living in caves, and throwing spears at tasty looking animals. Curiosity driven, fundamental research, helps us in numerous ways. For example, the fundamental research of Hertz and Maxwell. When the two aforementioned gentlemen researched electromagnetic fields, they had absolutely no idea that their research would underpin radio and TV developments that would garner enormous benefits and transform society. Our world is vastly overpopulated, we are destabilising the climate and generally doing a great job of destroying our very home. Missions like Rosetta, where we have developed and demonstrated the capability to travel a staggering 6.4 billion kilometres and touch a comet, help us obtain the technology to one day colonise Mars, the Moon, and mine the asteroids. As Steven Hawking recently stated, the survival of the human race depends on us colonising other worlds. And then of course there's the big one, the obvious one. We may be glad of our capability to travel 6.4 billion kilometres and interact with a comet... when we find we have to deflect a comet to stop it landing on your house. this money could have been better spent forcing the pharmaceuticals to supply cures for things rather than temporary remedies. Except that money doesn't enable us to do such a thing, legislation does. And if it did, given the huge profits made by pharmaceutical companies, they could do that anyway. perhaps supply water to those without in Africa Given that something like 85 of the richest people have as much wealth as the other half of the global population, the money is already available to provide water to those without in Africa. Disproportionate wealth is the issue, greedy corporations are the issue, corrupt politicians are the issue, politicians who were educated at the best public schools and never been short of money are the issue... not the endeavours by mankind to amass knowledge and understand the universe and our place in it. Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,308 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Personally, I am excited about this program. I hope it lands safely and works as designed, it's is fun to learn new things whether it leads to new answers, advancements or not. Link to post Share on other sites
markhudson6 13 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Thanks for the reminder Martin. Funny they fixed it by turning it off and on again. Oh Britfrog, that was quite a depressing post you wrote there. As Martin pointed out, no one, not the politicians and not even the scientists can possibly tell you the potential real world benefits of investigating nature. If we look back to the beginning of the twentieth century Rutherford was investigating the structure of the atom and Einstein was probing the very nature of space and time. These pursuits were seen as highly esoteric, even by the 1930’s Rutherford had announced that “Anybody who thinks you will get energy from the atomic nuclei is talking moonshine”. But with this newly discovered knowledge and Einstein’s E=mc2 they had laid the foundations for the discovery of an entirely new energy source. This is turn lead to quantum mechanics and the invention of the transistor, civilisation changing events I’m sure you’ll admit. The point is, there is no way of knowing which discoveries will lead to new technologies. Which ‘bit’ of knowledge will lead to something useful. If politicians at the start of the twentieth century had asked scientists to develop a new energy source they would, in all probability, had poured tons of money into R&D on coal, what else would you have done? If Faraday had not discovered the electron, no electric light, giving rise to the not so famous quote, “You’ll never get electric light from doing R&D on a candle”. Who would have thought that Andre Geim, a scientist working at Manchester University, a guy who holds the IG Nobel Prize for levitating frogs would discover a new form of carbon. Graphene is already one of the strongest materials known. Transistors have been developed using it that are faster than those made of silicon. This material has the potential to revolutionise the aerospace and semiconductor industries and that’s just the beginning. Not bad for a guy messing about with a strip of Sellotape and a pencil. As for the political points you make. The money is already available to to do all the things you dream of. Why divert money from science when in all likelihood it’s science that will help solve these problems? It’s politicians that should be answering these questions, not scientists. A quick Google shows that the US defence budget for 2014 is $640 billion, closer to $1 trillion as black projects are not disclosed. NASA received $17.5 billion, less than one half of one percent of the annual GDP of the US. Maybe diverting money from research into more extreme and exotic ways of murdering each other or bailing out corrupt banks would be better spent on solving the worlds problems, not diverting the relative pittance that science receives from government budgets world wide. As for people in third world countries not having access to clean running water, their are tens of thousands of people living in the US today, a so called super power, that can't even get access to clean running water, figure that out. http://www.alternet.org/economy/imagine-your-water-bill-shooting-4000-inside-one-detroits-biggest-urban-crises As for Rosetta what will we learn? A lot. How much of it will be useful? Who knows, maybe non of it. But that’s not the point, as there's no way of knowing until you look. I've not really added anything that Martin hasn't already said, but I had to stick my oar in. Kindest Regards, M. Link to post Share on other sites
ddavid 149 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 So, the Rosetta mission cost around Euro 1 bn, and the LHC about Euro 4 bn. How much (pre-tax) profits did Tesco make, last quarter? And it would only take 1000 yearly bankers' bonuses to pay for the Philae landing... I'm really interested in how much ice they find. Not sure it'll tell us much about the birth of the Solar System, though. This comet is supposed to have come from the hypothetical Oort Cloud - full of dirty snowballs! Maybe they'll re-write this part of the myth... Cheers - Dai. Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Lander is now spinning up its flywheel which will stabilise it for the decent. P.S. Awesome post Mark! Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 The cold gas system 20 Newton thruster failed over night. It was designed to counter elastic bounce off comet as Philae lands. It still has 2 harpoons and ice screws though. In order to prepare cold gas jet system, they have to charge a pin that punctures a wax seal on a tank. Succes is detrmined by changes in pressure in the sytem. This change in pressure was not detected. They tried twice, after four attempts the industry provider says it's unlikely to work. Pressure drop now detected. Tank is open. May have been a sensor malfunction. Go for landing. Commands are now being sent to the lander. MUPUS is on. MUPUS is designed to measure comet surface properties. SESAME dust sensor is now on. ROMAP is now collecting data. 8:40 Mechanical systems now turning on for separation. 8: 50 Automated sequence for landing now powering up. 9:05 Separation complete. The lander is on it's way! Touchdown will be about 4:02 UK time. Something like 1:30 - 2:30 we should receive images of the separation, and a farewll photo or two. Link to post Share on other sites
ddavid 149 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Deleted your post, Martin. Can't wait 'til 4pm. Let's hope the comet's charge isn't too different to that of Philae's. A big discharge could wipe out the lander's electronics. Cheers - Dai. Link to post Share on other sites
Christopher Low 63 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 A supporter of the Electric Universe theory, eh David? Or are you just sitting on the fence? Link to post Share on other sites
ddavid 149 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well, I'll be surprised if it's a 'dirty snowball', Chris. Last time a module touched-down on a comet, there was a flash and crash. Let's hope this doesn't happen today. And, yes, I'm an EU fan - very skeptical about current cosmological beliefs - but try to keep an open mind... Chers - Dai. Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I always look forward to images and video of the engineers back slapping (hopefully) after these risky space landings, whether it is moon, mars, or a comet. This is the most exciting "flight simulation" there is...having to remotely pilot a craft by pre-programming the moves, and waiting through time delays to find out if they executed properly...god what nail biters these must be. Good luck tiny lander, make your engineers proud parents. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well, I'll be surprised if it's a 'dirty snowball', Chris. Last time a module touched-down on a comet, there was a flash and crash. Let's hope this doesn't happen today. And, yes, I'm an EU fan - very skeptical about current cosmological beliefs - but try to keep an open mind... Chers - Dai. The flash and crash was deliberate last time, it was desighned that way to study the ejector.What's wrong with current theory? What's yours? EU is psuedo scientific, not science at all. My advice is to stick to real science rather than the pretend stuff. "Real"science has brought us great benefits, pretend science nothing. Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Plenty here that proves that EU is nonsense...https://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/ Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Lander is down! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30026398 Link to post Share on other sites
hifly 925 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Its landed! Link to post Share on other sites
ddavid 149 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Martin, I've admitted that I am skeptical. I have not 'rubbished' any hypotheses. I'm happy that you believe in what you read in the popular science press. I read the same material, but have significant doubts as to main stream cosmology principles. That you disagree is fine with me, however, making comments like 'pseudo science' and 'nonsense' about arguments put forward by a Nobel laureate is not very constructive. Anyway, we're here to applaud the incredible success of the Rosetta mission, not bandy words about EU. Cheers - Dai. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,308 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Kudos to the Philae team, that is quite a feat. Looking forward to the pictures. Link to post Share on other sites
jaydor 345 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Dai is right to be sceptical of all these theories, as that's just what they are. In school they used to teach the Big Bang theory saying there was nothing before the bang. Yet I always asked, was there no space before the bang? As there had to be space for the explosion to happen and expand. Never did get a answer. Link to post Share on other sites
hifly 925 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I cannot understand why some were sceptical about this mission. Landing on a comet, I mean c'mon, it's hardly rocket scie... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
britfrog 180 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I have to say I still consider this to be a frivolous waste of our money as for living in a cave well as a race we are going back to that state in the near future if we are not careful James I also never got an answer about what was before the big bang Link to post Share on other sites
jaydor 345 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I cannot understand why some were sceptical about this mission. Landing on a comet, I mean c'mon, it's hardly rocket scie... Sorry Geoff, but that lander got an frosty reception no matter how you look at it.. :D Link to post Share on other sites
hifly 925 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I cannot understand why some were sceptical about this mission. Landing on a comet, I mean c'mon, it's hardly rocket scie... Sorry Geoff, but that lander got an frosty reception no matter how you look at it.. I hope Philae doesn't get cold feet. Philae, isn't that a light pastry? As to what came before the big bang, I suppose us mortals cannot get our heads around the concept of eternity. Perhaps the universe goes something like this; Big bang, expansion, contraction, big bang, ad infinitum. Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Martin, I've admitted that I am skeptical. I have not 'rubbished' any hypotheses. I'm happy that you believe in what you read in the popular science press. I read the same material, but have significant doubts as to main stream cosmology principles. That you disagree is fine with me, however, making comments like 'pseudo science' and 'nonsense' about arguments put forward by a Nobel laureate is not very constructive. Anyway, we're here to applaud the incredible success of the Rosetta mission, not bandy words about EU. Cheers - Dai. Not what I read in popular press, what I read in scientific journals, what I know of the scientific consensus, what I know that has made predictions that have subsequently being tested and verified. EU is indeed pseudo science, it's been debunked many times. Read the link I gave you, it's very interesting. There are more. You might not think it's very constructive, but do you think our greatest minds, true experts in the field, like Hawking for example would believe in EU? Who knows, maybe EU, that flies in the face of everything we have discovered about the field, is correct... but such a likelihood is extremely low on the plausibility scale. No offence intended, it's good that you think for yourself and form your own opinions, mine and the scientific consensus are just different. Link to post Share on other sites
jaydor 345 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 The easiest way to look at it is. You are a time traveller; you are travelling in time from your birth to your death. "Happy journey" Link to post Share on other sites
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