Concorde Could Start Flying Again

[allardjd 1,853]

Famous Concorde supersonic airliner could start flying again...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/09/21/famous-concorde-supersonic-airliner-could-start-flying-again/?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork
 

"The Concorde supersonic airliner looks like it will make a return to the skies thanks to some aviation enthusiasts with very deep pockets.

Club Concorde, a group of ex-pilots, airline executives, engineers and Concorde enthusiasts have unveiled their plan to have the legendary jet back in the air by 2019....

... The particular plane Club Concorde is after is located at Le Bourget airport in Paris, which they want to buy and restore for around $250 million.

Once the restorations are complete, Club Concorde wants to use the iconic plane at air shows, corporate events and for private charters. At this stage, there are no plans to resume commercial flights."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's not going to happen. I'm sure they are serious and intend to go through with it but I suspect they are vastly under-estimating the cost of refurbishing and re-certifying the relic.

I hope they are looking at what the authorities have done to the Hawker Hunter and other high-performance military aircraft at UK airshows following the crash a month or so ago. Do these guys really expect the CAA and the EU aviation safety people to say, "Sure, no problem. Have fun and be safe now." They will be made to jump through ever more expensive hoops and subjected to crippling limits for what they would be allowed to do with it if permitted to fly.

It's a nice thought and I wish 'em luck but really don't expect anything to come of this.

John

[adrians69 159]

I agree, the cost would be astronomical just to get it through certification, let alone running costs. Look at the Vulcan and how difficult that was and that's being grounded again after this season's airshows.

Adrian

[Christopher Low 63]

Optimism costs nothing.

[SEATAC 400]

I can think of a lot better ways to spend $250 million

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

There must be a small group of deep pockets interested in chartering this thing if this is even being proposed.

I doubt anyone speculates 250 million on a business venture without having some customers lined up...question is...how much of the tip of the iceberg of costs will that 250 million cover? Unless some of those customers are deep pocketed enough to have pre-greased the certification process, I am guessing the "250" purchase and restoration costs (probably very optimistic for the later) are only a very small bit of the tip of that Berg.

[allardjd 1,853]

Optimism costs nothing.

 

 

True, but realism costs nothing either.

 

John

[dodgy-alan 1,587]

Have they also borne in mind that not only have Airbus withdrawn all the spares and jigs( Mostly at British Airways behest as Lord King couldn't bear the thought of Richard Branson running the aircraft) but all those aforementioned jigs and spares were also scrapped! There is infrastructure available to get this aircraft flying again. They have to bear in mind also that much of the design of the aircraft dates back to the early 50s and most tof the tech aboard the surviviors is at least 20-30 years old! Apart from a few safety additions following the crash at Paris, Concorde is a very old aircraft, albeit with less flying hours than a similar aged B747. Yes they were well maintained in service, but the last one flew over 10 years ago and they have deteriorated a lot since then.  I heard this rumour from another scource and even on there people were treating as simply wishfull thinking. If VTTST cannot keep a beautifully maintained and very popular Vulcan Bomber going any more, then no amount of money will get Concorde flying again. If it ever happens I'll be very very surprised.

[allardjd 1,853]

I read somewhere a while ago that all the fluids were drained from the systems, including all the hydraulics, brakes, etc, prior to sending the various Concordes to wherever they are being displayed now.  That's a nightmare waiting to happen as there will be corrosion through all those systems including in all the very tight-tolerance valves, controllers, pumps, actuators, accumulators, etc.  Hydraulic components are often not made from corrosion-resistant materials because they are intended to be flooded in oil during their entire service lives.  It will be worse in those airframes that are not stored inside, since the daily heating and cooling cycles will promote condensation.

 

This is not a project for the faint of heart.

 

John

[SEATAC 400]

I'll bet anyone and anything it never flies again.

Besides, how many pilots are there that hold a rating for that aircraft?

[hifly 925]

Iconic planes should be kept flying... but... they were loss makers for Air France and BA. AFAIK charters just about covered their costs so it seems a marginal venture at best.

 

Or maybe the cynic in me sees this as a scam. "Yes, we've spent all your donated cash but due to unforeseen..."

[allardjd 1,853]

So far, as far as I know, nobody is asking the public for donations. That's not to say they aren't putting the arm on some deep-pocketed potential donors, of course. Most of us aren't in that category.

John

[J G 927]

I will remain optimistic on this one, after all they got a Vulcan flying again.

 

When I was a lad and living at home with my parents, every day at midday the roar of Concords engines filled the sky.

 

I had long gone from home when Concord flights stopped, but both my parents still say they miss the noon time check.

[hifly 925]

Maybe they'll pull on some 'celebs' nostalgia heart strings to open their wallets for old times sake but I think it's pie in the sky. The airframes have been grounded for 12 years, Olympus engines spares? Hmm...

 

Concorde was always a head turner even as it flew twice daily into LHR but I'm sorry to say IMHO that this is one pointed nose pipe dream that will never take off.

 

I hope I'm proved wrong.

[allardjd 1,853]

I think it's safe to say all of us who doubt it will happen hope we're wrong.  There's nothing like Concorde in the world and it would be nice if one could still fly, but it's an expensive proposition.  I'd go so far as to say it's probably the most expensive non-military aircraft they could have chosen to refurbish.

 

John

[hifly 925]

Seriously John it was an impressive sight and sound, even on noisy, smoking finals as it flew over my head when I lived twelve miles east of LHR. As JG said you could set your clocks by it, such was it's prestige that I'm sure ATC would have given it priority over all so that it landed on time.  It was a swansong for British, (ok, and French) aviation vision and engineering but stymied by circumstance, oil prices and a global recession. Hence enter the 747, bean counters and Airbus.

 

Right plane, wrong time.

[Christopher Low 63]

I understand that there are massive obstacles to overcome, but the Save Concorde Group isn't a bunch of enthusiastic pensioners that meet in the village hall at the end of every month. This group has actual Concorde pilots as part of its membership! I am pretty sure that they know the challenges that they face. The funding is extremely impressive, and that suggests to me that there are some very interested, very rich customers and backers lined up behind the scenes. The scepticism is sensible, but......wouldn't it be amazing if they could pull it off?

 

[J G 927]

Engine spares may not be such an issue.  When I worked there, Brooklands museum had at least three ex-concord engines, two of which were crated up and not on show. Who knows how many more there are out there

[Andrew Godden 945]

I understand that there are massive obstacles to overcome, but the Save Concorde Group isn't a bunch of enthusiastic pensioners that meet in the village hall at the end of every month. This group has actual Concorde pilots as part of its membership! I am pretty sure that they know the challenges that they face. The funding is extremely impressive, and that suggests to me that there are some very interested, very rich customers and backers lined up behind the scenes. The scepticism is sensible, but......wouldn't it be amazing if they could pull it off?

 

I wouldn't be counting so much on them having the pilots at this stage.  They are a very long way away from a pilot even getting close to it - he is the last link in the chain, somewhat (unless the pilot group are part of the key financial backers in the early stages).

 

Other than the money and the need for very deep pockets, and then purchasing the aircraft, they first need to find the AMEs who are still licensed for Concorde, if, in fact, they still exist.  Otherwise the licensing process for the AMEs could be a little problematic.

 

It is true, optimism costs nothing, but reality (in this case) is prohibitively expensive.  Not to mention the practicality of setting up the logistics support.

 

Analogies can be drawn with Vulcan XH558, but it is stretching a rather long bow, as XH558 was kept in a serviceable condition and was purchased with eight engines (at least four of which were new) and an extensive supply of 17.5 tons of spare parts.

 

With each passing year that this project works towards realisation, the reality of this realisation will exponentially diminish.

 

A sentimental project, indeed, but I think Branson has a better chance of actually achieving his goal of commercial flights in SpaceShipTwo before Concorde could ever fly again.

[bilirubin 50]

Maybe they'll pull on some 'celebs' nostalgia heart strings to open their wallets for old times sake but I think it's pie in the sky. The airframes have been grounded for 12 years, Olympus engines spares? Hmm...

 

Concorde was always a head turner even as it flew twice daily into LHR but I'm sorry to say IMHO that this is one pointed nose pipe dream that will never take off.

 

I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

Back in the day when I was an engineer on the tools we were installing a new fire alarm system across a lot of Heathrow Airport. Everything came to a stand still when Concorde was ready to take off.

 

I managed to blag a quick tour one day, it had just arrived and a couple of us were working in the arrival lounge, a steward spotted us and asked if we would like a look inside which we jumped at.

 

A lot smaller than I imagined but still a great way to travel.

 

They were the days, cannot imagine something like this happening now with security as it is.

 

Mike

[J G 927]

There is a Concord at Brooklands Museum, and it is very cramped indeed. It is actually quite a small aircraft, but all the best things come in small packages.

 

I would love to see Concord fly again (in BA colours naturally), but although I remain optimistic (see my posts above) I wont be holding my breath. Sadly.  

[allardjd 1,853]

 This group has actual Concorde pilots as part of its membership! I am pretty sure that they know the challenges that they face.

 

 

I'd be careful about putting too much stock in former pilots being part of the group.  For them nostalgia might over-ride common sense.  Their knowledge and experience is primarily operational and they will not be experts about the details of refurbishment, maintenance and re-certification.   

 

If someone whose day job is in the business of maintaining and certifying aircraft in the UK and EU is on board and saying this can be done for the budgeted amount, I'd be more willing to pay attention. 

 

John

[Christopher Low 63]

There is a section of their website dedicated to the central issues facing a return to flight. It is written by a former B2 certified Concorde engineer (Ricky Bastin)....

 

http://www.saveconcordegroup.co.uk/

[dodgy-alan 1,587]

I grew up in Hounslow West which for those who don't know borders Heathrow to the East. We were actually part of Cranford but came under the Hounslow connurbation. My bedroom window at my parents house looked out at BOAC/BAs maintainence area. The Concordes were a common sight and as has been said earlier, you could indeed set your clocks by them. The flights always arrived and departed on time.

They were of their time and although everyone mourned their premature retirement, the fact was their technology was very outdated. They had very few flying hours compared to many aircraft, but then most airliners don't stretch and contract as they heated up in supersonic operations! They were very complex machines to operate and in the modern world were becoming an anachronism. They were continuously having to be updated to stay more or less current re safety requirements etc. One of my schoolfriends worked as a safety manager for BA and told me several times just how high maintainence those aircraft were compared to the rest of BAs fleet. With costs spiralling and the economic downturn affecting all airlines, the cost of keeping them in service was becoming impossible. Airbus had already said they could not keep the maintainence up indefinately, and Lord King was vehement that Virgin would not get their hands on what he called "His" aicraft. When they were finally grounded BAs engineers ruthlessly stripped out a lot of the electronics and other systems to make sure they could not be flown again.

It was a sorry saga and we were all sad to see the aircraft go, but in retrospect, BA made the correct decision. Supersonic Transport was becoming an expensive luxury for the privaleged few and common sense had to prevail. Just a few of my photos throughout her service, there are many more on 35m film. The ones with the Red Arrows were the flypast for the Heathrow 50th Anniverary flypast.

 

[allardjd 1,853]

I think of Concorde much as I do the SR-71, steam locomotives and steam powered ships - we're richer for having built them and seen them and studied their history and benefited in various ways from their usefulness when they were the right machine at the right time but their day has come and gone and things more economical, more reliable, more useful and more efficient have supplanted them.  They still tug at our hearts and something we valued was lost when they went away but it was the way of things that they have been with us and are now gone.  

 

Flying in the face of progress and trying to prolong the life of the obsolescent just because we liked it and marveled at it and enjoyed seeing it only works so long as there's money to be spent in the effort. If the public or private individuals are willing to bear the cost of keeping some of these things operating for the sake of nostalgia, that's great.  I can't think of a better example than the many wealthy owners of restored warbirds who see themselves as stewards of history and willingly pay the freight to have them restored and maintained (and have a whale of a time flying them) and allow us to see them at airshows.  When that money dries up it's truly the end.  Maybe one of the Concordes will fly again - maybe not.  I don't believe they could have picked a potentially more expensive or difficult  one.

 

John

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

... I don't believe they could have picked a potentially more expensive or difficult  one.

 

John

 

Been wracking my brain trying to think of one, and only thing that comes to mind might be trying to get the Spruce Goose flyable, or attempting to build a new one from scratch and get it certified to fly...even then, I think Concorde would cost more because of the greater complexity of the systems.

 

Hindenburg reproduction...with authentic Hydrogen lift gas?

 

 

Alan..thanks for sharing your photos. Those shots with the Red Arrows are awesome!