DC10 Stall

[wain 879]

I recently got JF DC10HD. I am following the tutorial and all is fine except on take off I either nearly stall or do stall..she is a real pest at rotate and then suddenly goes nose up...I may just be pulling back to harshly I have read that she takes a while to get going..trim is supposed to be at 4 but again I may have set this wrong...read somewhere that only FD to be on at takeoff but Tutorial says Autothrottle too..any help or suggestions welcome..I have saved flight after taxi to keep practising until I get this right..

Thanks

Wayne

[Bruce (a.k.a. brian747) 142]

Hi Wayne!

 

I don't know that particular aircraft (although inter alia I have flown the PMDG MD-11), however....

 

A sudden nose up at rotation does sound as though you may have the trim wrongly set (that one is very literally a killer, IRL).

 

Also, unless you're setting take-off power manually (quaint, but possible, I suppose) I can't imagine any reason why you wouldn't have authothrottle on for take-off (most companies have a checklist item to turn it on once you're on the runway and ready to go). Without A/T, your throttles won't advance to take-off power when you press the TO/GA button (you *do* press the TO/GA button?), so that could certainly explain why you are taking a while to get going, not to mention the stall when you try and wrench the thing into the air.

 

Do you ever reach the required rotation speed (while still on the runway and before you enter the golf course at the end, that is)?   

 

Cheers,

 

bruce

a.k.a. brian747

 

[Andrew Godden 934]

Wayne,

 

I haven't flown the DC-10 for a while but I have been flying the Lockheed L-1011 'TriStar' (competing design from the same development era).

 

Assuming similar flight characteristics and performance as the L-1011, some more practical questions / observations about the DC-10:

• check weight and balance, paying attention to the C of G;
• the thrust to weight ratio on these aircraft is not big, so you have to nurture them into the air, particularly at, or close to MTOW;
• generally speaking, and especially at MTOW, you will need a lot of runway, a gentle rotation, and a even more gentle rate of climb on climb out; and
• being too steep on the rotation and climb out and you will quickly fall off the back of the power curve and stall, and this needs to be monitored all the way to cruise altitude.

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[wain 879]

Thanks for the info guys...I will check the trim I may have set it wrong...I do get airborne and up to the correct speed and have actually flown and landed so I reckon I must be missing a step somewhere...I have stalled at Takeoff and during the climb...this is so different to what I am used to...I will crack it though..I also think as it is very slow at rotation I may be panicking and pulling back too far on the stick..will check the weights to...See the A320 spoils you by working all this out but obviously the DC10 was not so automated and required the pilot to work a bit more...

Wayne

[Andrew Godden 934]

See the A320 spoils you by working all this out but obviously the DC10 was not so automated and required the pilot to work a bit more...

Wayne

 

Don't you just love "real flying" with real gauges. None of this "children of the magenta" stuff, input it into the FMC, engage the A/T, press the TO/GA button, and then engage the AP, but then tell everyone you're a pilot who "flies" the plane.

[wain 879]

This is true Andrew...6 months ago I wouldve said You wont catch me in them tubes...after using various version of FS from around 1998 Until present I had always been GA but I am really enjoying this learning new stuff...keep your brain working is my plan as I get older...

Are there sifferent versions of the DC10 in the JF package or are the VC all the same? Just wondering if I chose the wrong one....

Wayne

[wain 879]

Ok be gentle and dont chastise me too much if I am wrong. I have only been using this for almost a week.

Tutorial doesnt mention a TOGA button..searching the net I have read that once you have stabilised the engines at 70% you then increase to full throttle releasing the brakes too.. this should trigger TOGA and you should here a distinct click. Obviously the AT is armed and the aircraft is trimmed and correct flap settings are set..

Can anyone confirm this is correct?

I will take a stroll through the manual once I get home.

Wayne

[Quickmarch 488]

I don't know the DC-10 (it's not in my hangar), but most airliners use the TOGA. 

 

70% sounds a bit high. More likely 40% or 50%. You're looking to stabilise the engines at something greater than idle without taxing the brakes and tires (tyres) too much. 

 

I'm going by memory, so please excuse any minor deviations: On the FSX default 737, there is no TOGA button. Instead use the "N1" button to the left of the "Speed" button on the autopilot panel. You have to set the N1 limit first - in the 2D panel. It is also wise to set the altitude to something (usually dictated by ATC) like 3000' or whatever is dictated by the SID, if you're using one, and the Speed to 240 Kts. It is necessary to hand fly to about 1000ft AGL, keeping the speed stabilised at approx V2+20kts with pitch angle, then transition to autopilot (CMD, RHS of the autopilot panel, or the "Z" button on your keyboard) and click the "Speed" button to take the engines out of "N1" . If you have the Speed and auto throttle set, the aircraft will enter a controlled climb, not exceeding the <FL100 - 250Kt limit. ATC will clear you to higher altitudes and once past FL100, you are (usually) free to increase speed.

 

Hope this helps.

[Andrew Godden 934]

Ok be gentle and dont chastise me too much if I am wrong. I have only been using this for almost a week.

Tutorial doesnt mention a TOGA button..searching the net I have read that once you have stabilised the engines at 70% you then increase to full throttle releasing the brakes too.. this should trigger TOGA and you should here a distinct click. Obviously the AT is armed and the aircraft is trimmed and correct flap settings are set..

Can anyone confirm this is correct?

I will take a stroll through the manual once I get home.

Wayne

Wayne,

Sounds like the correct procedure to me. Some of the real world procedural manuals I have for the DC-10 focus on the manual advancing of throttles on take-off as normal procedure. Any use of a TO/GA button is specifically mentioned as an alternative method.

The generic normal procedure for any aircraft of this era was hold the brakes, advance the throttles, watch the engines spool up to about 70% N1 (or until the brakes can't hold any longer), release the brakes, advance the throttles fully, and then monitor V speeds in the lead up to rotation.

Cheers

Andrew

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

Ok be gentle and dont chastise me too much if I am wrong. I have only been using this for almost a week.

Tutorial doesnt mention a TOGA button..searching the net I have read that once you have stabilised the engines at 70% you then increase to full throttle releasing the brakes too.. this should trigger TOGA and you should here a distinct click. Obviously the AT is armed and the aircraft is trimmed and correct flap settings are set..

Can anyone confirm this is correct?

I will take a stroll through the manual once I get home.

Wayne

Wayne,

Sounds like the correct procedure to me. Some of the real world procedural manuals I have for the DC-10 focus on the manual advancing of throttles on take-off as normal procedure. Any use of a TO/GA button is specifically mentioned as an alternative method.

The generic normal procedure for any aircraft of this era was hold the brakes, advance the throttles, watch the engines spool up to about 70% (or until the brakes can't hold any longer), release the brakes, and then monitor V speeds in the lead up to rotation.

Cheers

Andrew

Phew. Reading this thread I started worrying I was a horibad tube pilot till I read Andrew's post. I have never tried using TOGA nor AP on a take off. I do pretty much what Andrew just descibed with 1 or 2 flap notches out...and then manually hold a pitch that keeps speed under/around 250kts while cleaning up the gear and flaps, reducing throttle as much as necessary to avoid excessive pitch if flying light.

But im gonna give that TOGA and autothrottle a try next time.

Always keep learning stuff here.

Thanks folks.

[Andrew Godden 934]

A further point on the use of the TO/GA button.

 

It's useless advice if it is not modeled in the aircraft, so any advice / questions about whether you have pressed the TO/GA button must be relevant to the original question asked and aircraft model in question. As Quickmarch correctly pointed out, not all FSX aircraft models have a TO/GA button.

 

In the the case of the Just Flight DC-10 HD, it is part of their F-Lite range of products. These products were developed as a simplified version of commercial aircraft for flight simmers who simply want to fly the aircraft, with less, if any, emphasis on systems and procedures.

 

Therefore, the correct take-off procedure for this aircraft is as defined in the manual, and that currently being followed by Wayne.....and it is a MANUAL take-off procedure.

 

The only other points I can offer is to make sure you have set 15 degree of flaps for take-off and you should expect a Vr speed around the 160 KIAS mark. This can be validated in the Take-Off / Approach page of the FMC.

 

Actually flying the aircraft is such fun.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[wain 879]

Below is a picture from in the DC10, I have highlighted the Thrust Computer, the TO & GA buttons in JFs words 'operate in this unit'.

 

There is no mention of this in the tutorial but after rereading the manual I have found it, Brians earlier post made me curious.

 

I have now pressed this once I have fully throttled up  and the throttles are staying powered up. I was finding that somehow they started to power down a lot during the early part of the climb and then the trim moved to a very high number, dont know why, any suggestions? Any way this now doe not seem to be happening.

 

I got to say though that on takeoff there is a lot going on within the cockpit. Its not a case of full throttle AP on and away you go, seems on other forums that lots of people struggle to get it to climb, or dont reduce the FPM clime after 25000ft.

 

I also think I was trimming incorrectly, I did this in the 320 once, I had to trim to 0.8 but set it to 8!!!!

 

I am enjoying this but also like the Bus and all the prep work that goes into that......thanks everyone for your help and advise.....

 

Wayne

 

[Andrew Godden 934]

I stand corrected.

 

The "thrust computer" (with a TO/GA function) is indeed covered by a limited description under the Co-Pilot's Panel section of the Just Flight DC-10 HD Operations Manual and has limited functionality.  There is no other mention of its operation in the procedures section.

[SEATAC 400]

I have the non-HD version of this, and typically, once you calculate the V speeds (which can be done with the FMC), you would set the auto-throttle to V2+10.  Set the flaps to takeoff position, 15 degrees is a standard setting, Elevator trim to 4 units up. Now this one does not have a functional TOGA to my knowledge, so I manually advance the throttles to 70% N1, wait for the gauges to stabilize and release the brakes and then full throttle, when I pass VR I pull back on the yoke,  and she lifts off beautifully. Engage the auto-throttle, Gear Up, Hold the nose at about 15 degrees pitch, When she is cleaned up then I set the auto-throttle to 230 and engage the altitude hold which I have set to 12,000 ft initially and the VS to  2,000 FPM. When I pass 10,000ft I push her to about 300 knots.

 

[Andrew Godden 934]

Wayne,

I spent yesterday afternoon doing manual circuits with the Just Flight DC-10 HD out of Arlanda (ESSA), Orbx's latest airport release, to reacquaint myself with the DC-10.

I had the aircraft at MTOW and used the procedure you have been following, manually advancing the throttles as described. Like Richard's experiences above, and with a Vr of approximately 160 KIAS, the DC-10 lifted off gently when pulling back slightly on the yoke. In some early instances, I did find I had set the pitch slightly higher than 4, resulting in the aircraft lifting itself off the runway.

Keeping the rate of climb at about 2,500 fpm, speed during climb out was not a problem, and nothing close to a stall was imminent.

Cheers

Andrew

[wain 879]

Thanks for looking into it Richard & Andrew. I am not sure if it was just me or what, however I have set the pitch slightly different and I have pressed the TO button and I dont seem to be getting any issues now. It may just be in my mind and I just happen to be getting it correct now and the TO button doesnt do anything. I was finding as I started to climb I was doing exactly what richard was doing but the trim went right up and the aircraft started throttling back, really weird, but all seems ok now......

 

Thanks again guys for all your input, not sure what I am doing but it seems I have sorted it....

 

Wayne

 

*EDIT*

Just done a few takeoffs without using the 'TO' button and all was ok, I guess it was just me, will make a point of saving at the runway in future just in case it goes a bit wild......

[Andrew Godden 934]

Wayne,

 

The DC-10 is a big step up if you are not familiar with larger aircraft and can take some getting used to, but once you get there, it all becomes second nature.

 

Here is a video on automation dependency (Children of the Magneta) from American Airlines. It is a bit lengthy but entertaining and informative and with a simple message.

 

The presenter talks about the industry creating a problem with pilots relying too heavily on automation rather than simply flying the plane. He makes a very significant point at the beginning, that in 68% of accidents, automation dependency plays a significant part in leading crews to either a critical flight attitude or the requirement to extract maximum performance from their planes and that automation dependent pilots allowed their airplanes to get much closer to the edge of the envelope than they should have.

 

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

Starting at aprox 7:50 or so...."In that scenario....There's the airport, there's me, what can the computer possible bring to me that I don't already have?"

 

 

This^ awesome...because unless the pilot is flying with Asiana and doesn't actually know how to fly by hand...the answer is Nothing, and/or More Work, Less Looking.

 

[wain 879]

Interesting bit of viewing, I think even with the automation they should still have situation awareness etc.....also be prepared to take control....