Civil War!

[A320cap 0]

Hey guys! What's up?? It's been quite some time since last time I was on this forums.

Anyway, I guess you have heard it in the news: Athens is on fire! A policeman shot down a 16 year-old boy, who was swearing the policemen along with some others. After his death, many Greeks rose in protest. Since last night, many cars and shops have been set on fire both in Athens and Thessaloniki. Believe me, it's not a good sight seeing the city you've grown up in flames just like in war . Here is the Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 1720081207

My concolences to the family of this young boy.

[allardjd 1,853]

Panos,

Bad stuff! I'm sorry to hear about it and hope you're staying safe and out of it.

The article you linked is very interesting and it's kind of sad that in Greece, where I believe the concept of democracy was first formulated, people feel they need to resort to this kind of violence and anarchy to express their disapproval of the government.

It says the policeman who shot the boy was in a patrol car that was being attacked by 30 youths. Panic, maybe?

John

[A320cap 0]

Agreed with you John.

What I heard in the news, was that a team of teenagers were swearing the policemen, then the latter parked their car a few meters away and approached the boys to take some kind of revenge. This was the time the policeman aimed, according to eye-witnesses, the boy and shot him dead

[mutley 4,497]

That is bad news Panos, keep safe my friend.

joe

[hurricanemk1c 195]

I can only say, stay safe

[A320cap 0]

Riots continue. Many historic places as well as stores have been burnt.

CNN Article

We just don't know when all these are going to stop. Our economy has collapsed since we are in the middle of the economic crisis. Most of us want the Prime Minister to retire

[mutley 4,497]

Terrible news Panos, let's hope that after the funeral today things start to calm down.

Hope you are keeping safe.

[JoeEllwood 0]

Damn. Hope your immediate neck of the woods is safe.

Take care buddy.

[allardjd 1,853]

In the normal course of things, when is the next election, or when would thid Prime Minister leave office?

I have little patience for people who express their anger with something by rioting and destroying things, sometimes injuring and killing people in the process. If the government is an oppressive dictatorship with no legal mechanism in place for it to eventually be replaced, that's one thing. In a democracy, riots or violent and destructive protests are immature and immoral, to say the least.

Peaceful demonstrations and protests are one thing; civil disobedience is the next step and may be acceptable and justified in some cases. When it gets violent and damages property and hurts people, it's very difficult to have any sympathy for the rioters.

I can live with the idea of sign wavers, but don't care much for brick throwers and fire-setters.

John

[A320cap 0]

:sadblinky: :sadblinky:

Please take some time and look at the following shots. Copyright In.gr

The poor little boy:

[grth_bbtt 0]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

keep inside and keep safe panos! looks like a proper riot down there!

[allardjd 1,853]

Panos,

Is "...the poor little boy..." the one who was shot?

Seems a little young to be out wandering the streets in a gang of 30 who were [stoning/swearing at - choose one or both] a police car.

Those are good photos of trouble-makers and the trouble they've caused. I feel bad for the people of Greece who had no part in causing this but have to suffer through it. Bad times. It reminds me of photos from France about a year ago (or was it two?) - another democracy, some of whose "citizens" couldn't be bothered to seek change within the framework of the law.

When are the Greek elections?

Does the Greek constitution have provisions for Recall or Impeachment if the government are viewed to be that bad?

John

[A320cap 0]

Yes he is the one who was shot. I called him "poor" because his parents were divorced and he was found at the wrong place the wrong time. He had been to the party of a friend of his who was celebrating his name day and then hapenned to pass from that spot. He may swore the policemen and that would be really bad but his punishment couldn't be his death.

The Elections should be in 2011 but I guess our stupid Prime Minister Karamanlis will go on elections way sooner. A lot of scandals have broken out during the 5 years he was Prime Minister. For example,it was proved that a "priest" called Efraim, was everything but a priest. He along with some other of politicians of "New Democracy" have stolen 8 MILLION EUROS. I guess you can undestand why ALL GREEKS ARE FRUSTRATED

As for the third one, I really have no idea. We just sit back and wait for the government to resign

[allardjd 1,853]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ambrose_evans-pritchard/blog/2008/12/10/greek_fighting_the_eurozones_weakest_link_starts_to_crack

This seems to be a well-written article by someone who seems to know what he's talking about, though I'm ignorant of much of it. For all I know the guy may be a fool.

I must admit that I've been skeptical of the whole EU idea. So far I don't see much benefit in it for anyone except two or three countries that were already economic leaders of the region, and of course the new "ruling class" of un-elected bureaucrats.

On the surface it seems an attempt to emulate the US, a group of states who band together to become more than the sum of the parts. In Europe, however, the sovereignty, history, culture and individual identities of those states are so strong, embedded and disparate that I don't see much chance for harmony to emerge. Rather it appears that a few will profit at the expense of the others.

Greece seems to be a special case that was headed for economic, political and social calamity with or without EU membership. The article contends that the current Greek government cooked the books in order to be admitted, perhaps to stave off the inevitable. It seems the pigeons have come home to roost there, and probably the government will fall sooner rather than later. It is to be hoped that law and order will prevail and a new government will be duly elected and do better than the last. That is, of course, crystal ball work for now.

John

[allardjd 1,853]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/3706849/Greek-protest-spread-with-arrests-across-Europe.html

...11 protesters were arrested and several police officers injured when clashes took place in Madrid and Barcelona.

In Copenhagen, 32 people were arrested when their protest in support of the Greek protests turned violent.

In neighbouring Turkey, about a dozen left-wing protesters daubed red paint over the front of the Greek consulate in Istanbul.

Around 150 people belonging to a Danish underground movement took to the streets, throwing bottles and paint bombs at buildings, police cars and officers. In Moscow and Rome, protesters threw petrol bombs at Greece's embassies.

...a Russian news crew assaulted by a mob of about 50 youths, some of them reportedly drunk.

In Athens, around 40 youths threw stones at riot police near university buildings...

Overnight, students hurling petrol bombs and stones again battled riot police in Athens...

...Thessaloniki, where more than 80 shops and 14 banks were damaged, with students continuing to occupy university campuses.

About the killing of the boy...

Under questioning by a magistrate, Mr Korkoneas said he had acted out of self defence when a group of youths began throwing firebombs and other objects while threatening to kill him and his partner.

His lawyer said the bullet which killed Grigoropoulos showed signs of having bounced off a hard surface, indicating that the boy was killed as a result of an accidental ricochet.

This violence is madness and much of it has little to do with the supposed event that initiated it. Many of those protesting the killing of the boy are trying to injure or kill police officers - there's logic for you. Left-wing and anarchist groups love to have an excuse to disrupt things in a way that they can blame on a government. Hoodlums, vandals and petty thieves everywhere rise to the occasion and raise havoc for the sheer fun of it.

Without defending their other actions or policies, I can't help but be in the corner of the Greek government in this case.

John

[MartinW 0]

This violence is madness and much of it has little to do with the supposed event that initiated it.

Precisely, in cases like this the continued violence is merely an excuse for lawlessness, a chance to loot a few shops and revert to the tribal, territorial, barbaric instincts of the past. And the perpetrators are usually teenagers with brains marinated in testosterone, apart from the ones whose skulls are devoid of anything remotely resembling a brain that is.

The Mumbai terrorist attacks recently are a prime example.

Some of the pupils at our local 6th form college, Sikhs and Muslims, decided it would be a fantastic idea to recruit a 200 strong army of teenage morons and meet in our local park for a full scale battle. My wife works for out local council, so has dealings with the police at the highest level. She was told by our chief inspector that the police took knifes, machetes, screwdrivers and all manner of weapons from the brain dead idiots. The police helicopter was hovering over the park repeatedly that day; I could see it from my house. Luckily the police did a fantastic job, arrested many and dispersed the rest. Again, barely anything to do with the events in the news, just an excuse for a gang battle.