PC Tale of Woe

[Sabre 28]

Just thought I'd relay my recent problems in the hope of some divine intervention

Once upon a time ......

One day totally out of the blue I started experiencing some graphical problems with my PC. These showed themselves in a number of different ways on different occasions, strange vertical lines appeared, blue screens (no error text), black screens (still had sound), black screens with a couple of vertical and a couple of horizontal lines, sometimes the desktop display would shift left by quarter of a screen!! These things would be totally random sometimes with a reboot they would seemingly fix themselves.

Initially I tried updating video drivers, running virus scans and malware scans, nothing changed, sometimes PC would work for a while then pop! Glitches followed by shutdown or me shutting down with power off.

I endeavoured to investigate to open up my machine and check some hardware. I checked for loose cables/connections, checked power supplies to GFX card, mobo, etc. All seemed fine. I removed GFX card and re-seated. I blew out dust to give it a good clean something I do regularly anyway but thought what the heck! Whilst the tower unit was lying on its side I powered up the PC and it loaded up just fine. I left it lying down and tested further. The PC seemed to be working well, tried out FSX amongst other things and all was well. I left PC running all day and it stayed on with no glitches. This sort of worked for a while although sometimes on start up the PC would freeze at the dos screens with all the load information where you access bios settings etc, power of and on a couple of times and PC would start. However if I ever stood PC upright almost immediately I’d get glitches. So for a few days I left it lying down and pretended it would all just go away.

Now these problems would come up randomly sometimes first thing on a morning when PC had been off all night and other times after it had been running. Anyway after much internet searching I decided it was my GFX Card (a quite new AMD Radeon HD6950 2GB) so I contacted E-Buyer and they accepted a return under warranty and placed card on test! Long story short they advised they could not replicate the problem and the card was fine which I have to say whilst I wasn’t happy at the time I had to concede that the card would work for several hours (in the lying down tower). Armed with the assurance the card was fine and despite the fact that the problem could occur when the PC was stone cold and the fact that the Antec Case I have has three fans and a “big boy” fan on top I thought heat. Having just a standard intel fan on my CPU I trot off to the shops and buy some better cooling. I clean the CPU add new paste etc and job done.

And so the tale continues with no change to the problems although now the occasional black/grey screen hits locking up PC (still has sound) – only solution is power off and restart.

I again decide to pretend that nothing is wrong as I can get PC to start after a couple of attempts and plus I miss my flying so hey ho. Strangely enough I don’t think it’s ever gone off during FSX. It’s gone off during pretty much everything else including Air Hauler!!

So I’m in one of my “everything’s fine” phases thinking it’ll all go away. Whilst I can get it to stay on for hours at a time the consistent thing is the glitches return immediately upon standing up the PC. Anyway I renew my desire to remedy the situation and a number of conversations and internet searches I determine that the PSU may be at fault so I reduce my bank account by £125 and purchase a new Corsair HX850 Watt unit to give it that bit more umphh from my Be Quiet 650 Watt unit.

Yep you guessed it, that makes no difference at all, in fact now I have an additional problem in that despite connecting all the cables available on the PSU I can now only get output to one monitor. Both work just not at the same time!!! I tried an alternative GFX Card and that’s the same, only one output.

By my reckoning that only leaves the RAM, the CPU or the Motherboard and since I have a 9550 Quad Core 2.8GHz CPU on an ASUS P5Q Deluxe board with 4GB DDR2 RAM this means replacing them all which seems to mean spending lots of cash and reinstalling everything.

I thought I’d share this experience hoping that saying it out loud would help the healing process – alas not as I’m now completely depressed.

Please don’t judge me too harshly if I’ve made wrong decisions and I’ve missed a blindingly obvious problem – my only defence is ignorance

[needles 1,013]

I thought that Woe was only I. But no, you have the same woes.

Spend the money. There are no pockets in shrouds as they say.

[The red barron 41]

Hi Sabre

Shame that your having PC issues again but Just a suggestion:

Most likely not your RAM as I fail to see how that would produce a graphical glitch plus the OS would use some HDD space as 'virtual memory' (that what it's designed to do)

Could possibly be the CPU as it does have the visualization technology, but that should be an issue as I would have thought that the GPU would override it plus the output is from the GPU not the CPU. (Visualization is for its own running not the PC's)

Seeing as most issues your having are with the board I have to say it could be that. Try checking the board for a tiny fracture or crack as this will upset it immensely. This also could be why the issue is reduced with the PC lying flat, as the slight crack may be rejoined allowing full operation. Trust me, a tiny invisible crack will cause the board to power down almost straight away. This could be caused by a possible heat stress, (like metal fatigue) this could be around the PCI-E slot for the GPU< which would semi - explain the graphic issues.

Another thing is, perhaps there is some shorting going on somewhere or static electricity from the case or a component.

Although this doesn't explain why it doesn't happen when your running FSX, as you would expect it to fail while under load.

Very Strange!

[brett 2,315]

My first guess would have been the graphic card. You said it is an intermittent problem so maybe the test wasn't done long enough to catch it and it could still be at a eairler stage of failure. Just a wild guess as I no nothing about the hardware side of pc's but could at also be a bad cable to the display and not just loose.

[allardjd 1,853]

Bird Man's and Red Baron's ideas make the most sense. Something physical/mechanical is the root cause - the business about not running correctly while upright strongly suggests that. Weight of the cooler bearing on the CPU when vertical or some kind of strain or warpage of the whole MB causing something to open or go intermittent suggest themselves.

I'd look hard at where and how it's sitting when upright. Is the floor/desk really a flat surface? Is there a foot missing from the case? You might try shimming a case foot, one at a time to see if you can make the problem go away by relieving any strain from sitting on a non-level surface.

Also look at all the interconnecting cables to see if any are too tight, causing strain on a board connector or socket.

I'd consider going back to the old Power supply, though can't understand why replacing that would cause the problem with only one display at a time. That one is a real head scratcher too.

This is mostly guesswork, of course. The only thing worse than not having a computer is having one.

John

[Sabre 28]

The only thing worse than not having a computer is having one.

John

Very true

Thanks for the update gents, I really appreciate it.

However it looks like I may have tinkered too far as today after switching on there was a distinct wiff of smoke and now nothing!

There's power to the motherboard but once I try and start nothing other than the case fans attempting to start. I can't think I did anything as I was just re-seating and re-routing cables and such. Anyway it seems that fate has determined I will spend a significant sum of money after all

Do you think the mobo might have been fried?

[brett 2,315]

May in Rest In Hell Peace.

Sorry to hear about your situation, I feel for ya bro.

[jaydor 345]

_{As a self builder I am going to go with Mikes's diagnosis, all the syptoms relate to an overheating cpu. So the laying on the side reinforces his correct assumption of the weight factor on the cpu. Now you will have to be very carfull with what I say next. Remove the fan off the cpu and with your finger gently see if there is any movement with the cpu in it's seating. Sometimes the holding lever can come loose. If all OK there, then remove the cpu from its socket on th M/b (carefull, a straight lift up and away) now check that all the pins on the cpu are all straight. The other thing is it could be a CRACKED M/b, this can happen when RAM is pressed into the board with no support underneath like a piece of cardboard the same thickness as the space between the M/b and the case. It's going to be a bit of try as you go to sort this out. Did you build it yourself or is it off the shelf? The other way is to try and borrow the same type cpu and try it out to see if it clear's the problem, if not then you can suspect the M/b..}

_{Keep us informed..}

_James

_{edit: Have you tried a different grafics card? Forget that as you say E-buyer has tested it?}

[jaydor 345]

Oh! double sh*t, that does sound like something's been Kentukied..

It's down the PC doctors for you mate..

[Sabre 28]

Oh, sh*t.

That sums it up very well indeed Mike

Oh! double sh*t, that does sound like something's been Kentukied..

It's down the PC doctors for you mate..

Indeed James - Fried Chicken anybody?

In an attempt to move this tale into a positive zone can any of you chaps suggest a real good Mobo, CPU and RAM configuration. I'm not putting a budget on it at present I'll leave that to the wife although at present I'm playing heavily for the sympathy vote and it won't last.

I'll then have the small matter of trying recover my data.

@James - yes I built my current rig myself but I'm really not brilliant at any of this stuff particularly the software side, in the main putting the physical bits together isn't too difficult or at least I manage!

Any help greatly appreciated

[jaydor 345]

Well for a motherboard, you will not go wrong with the Asus P8Z68-v-Pro as that will allow you to self overclock (that's what I have and like you I am no expert) overclocking the Asus way is childs play.. Although I got 8Gb Ram apparently windows does not use more than 4Gb; unless someone can enlighten us? Cpu? Well go for the best you can afford. As the old saying is; buy cheap, buy twice..

If you build your own remember to earth yourself, as the biggest killer of all is Static..

edit: I stand on a rubber mat completely naked with 4 blonde 24 year old nimph's blowing kisses at me to keep me cool and help with the concentration.. :rofl:

[mutley 4,498]

Ha ha! I thought that was heading in another direction James!

[jaydor 345]

Just elimitting the static Joe??

[The red barron 41]

Ouch!

I feel for you, seems you may have accidentally introduced some static into the works which will most defiantly spark and fry the lot! Grounding straps are cheap these days, or do what I did when I built mine; I seated and plugged in the PSU but left it OFF at the mains, then whenever I put my hands in the PC I touched one of the case screws which grounded me via the case and table to the floor.

Sorry to hear that your going to have to spend, but it does sound like the mobo fried its self.

[Sabre 28]

I suspect these deals aren't for everyone but it has very good reviwes and the bonus for me is it's plug n play. Any thoughts or observations I'm looking at the 8GB variant but it has Samsung Green RAM whatever that is?

http://www.overclock...U-082-OE&tool=3

Edit 1

I think first one is more realistic but here's another combo

http://www.overclock...tid=2053=

Edit 2

Might squeeze this one if it was worth it!!

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=BU-115-OE&groupid=43&catid=2053&subcat=

[Sabre 28]

I'm now thinking of this one - less money and X79

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=BU-103-OE&groupid=43&catid=2053&subcat=2175

[The red barron 41]

HI Sabre,

Having a quick look over these I have some questions for you:

DO some searching first!! ask yourself how confident you feel at building a system, as these components brought separately can be a lot cheaper when they're not bundled and put together for you

Look around, dabs and scan were the two I used, I got both a great deal and great service when I bought my components, plus they were MUCH cheaper then OCUK

Also apparently the I5 2500K is better then some of the I7 range in both performance and price

Dabs had some great offers not to long ago on mobo's and CPU's

remember, you want

the fastest CPU for the least, (hence where the i5 comes into play)

Here's a link to the i5, this one even come with a free anti static band too!

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/29-4intel-core-i5-3570k-s-1155-ivy-bridge-quad-core-34ghz-5-gt-s-dmi-650mhz-gpu-6mb-smart-cache-34x-

[jaydor 345]

Make sure you buy a cpu with a k on the end as that means it's clockable. Asus boards allow you to overclock via their Asus suite (childs play) I bought all mine from SCAN great to deal with and will even tell you the time of delivery..

Oh! and they supplied the blondes.. :rofl:

[PanzerFodder 0]

Sorry to hear about the melt down .

I would now like to save you from yourself buddy, and say get a i7 2600k, sorry but I know what your like and you will always be mulling it over in you mind if you buy somthing cheaper .

when you buy a mainboard and Ram, check all the forums to see what is compatible with what, the ASUS web site used to have a link for each mainboard model listing all the different make/types of Ram that would work with that particular board . (from what i have read, some M/B and Ram combinations can be real lemons .

When I changed my mainboard (I kept my old hard drive, just plugged it in to the new board) after the boot up Windows 7 detects a new board and asks you to type in you OP reg number, after that it gives you a new number to use (have a pen handy to write it all down and keep it with your disks, just incase you have to do a reinstal at some point in the future).

At least you have a superb PSU now, so you can sell your old one on E-BAY, you may as well sell the 9550 as well, and DDR2 is expensive to buy these days, you may get a better price than think for it and that will go a long way to cover the cost of new DDR3 which is pretty darn cheap ATM .

Cheer's...Graham...

[britfrog 180]

I do hope that whatever fried in the p.c. was the source of the problem, I had the same symtoms last year and it turned out to be my monitor that was causing the black outs and weird lines and colours, started by a loose cable connectionfrom the p.c. to the monitor.

However as you are now resigned to getting a new p.c. setup i would recommend a I7 2600K it must have the K ending as this can be overclocked. it runs circles around an I5, as the yanks say there aint no substitute for horsepower. Any good Z68 motherboard will do , I use a gigabyte at the moment but have always used Asus for the last 20 years , they really are the rolls royce of p.c. components with a far lower failure rate than any other manufacturer. and get some corsair memory the more the better 8 will give you far better performance than 4 and 16 still gives a noticeable improvement over 8. Whilst i do still buy some stuff from a local "happy shopper" outlet i , in the main, use Amazon , who offer some pretty good prices and a cast iron guarantee, as well as relaiable delivery service.

[Sabre 28]

Thanks for all the input gents. It's a very confusing business all this hardware stuff, matching this with that and so on

At the minute for shear ease and simplicity I'm probably more inclined towards a bundled deal even though as pointed out it's the more expensive route. A few things are swaying me at the minute, the first being the 12 month collect and return warranty and second the fact they are already overclocked and third I don't have the stress of matching up the items.

Decisions, decisions

I know it's not rocket science, it just feels like it

[jaydor 345]

Well that's the best idea; as making your own choice is always the best. Well done, when it comes to putting it together and fireing up, you have my email so buzz me at anytime if you want too.. :stars: 2 confussed heads are more fun than an expert..

[britfrog 180]

The good thing about the i5 overclocks better, as well as price. You should get an o/c close to an i7 OC anyway. If your end clockspeed after the OC is the same (its got the same numner of rings). The higher the unclocked speed generally means the less you can get by an o/c. I'm a bit surprise britrog that you get 4.8 from a 2700K - would have though that was inherently a bit unstable specially with the likes of FSX Just my sixpence worth, but then I'm IT, not a pilot or a ringmaster Bur I would probably get the 2700K as well There's a lot of hype and BS from the manufacturers One point, 16gb is unlikely to give you a speed improvement over 8 or even 4 unless running 64 bit apps CAD or something - but it WILL limit your overclock. it depends what else you're running apart from 32bit FSX. FSX will only use 4 gb. and other 32 bits will share that 4 - so how many 64 bit jobbies you got running?

Mike - trust me I'm not a salesman

Edit - one thing about the 2700 (and 2600 and various others i5 and i7 They've got graphics built in so you're paying a bit for something you won't want to use

fyi i have run my I7 at 5.2 with no problem however i run it at 4.8 for reliability , something an I5 can only dream of

16gb does give a real improvement in fsx over 8gb tried and tested, especially if you are using some navigation software or vatsim at the same time, as windows will make full us of the memory available.

[Sabre 28]

Update

Well the saga continued. The short version is that I purchased and installed a bundled package from Overclockers. After sweating away a few pounds through having to fit the CPU cooling (so not quite as plug 'n play as advertised!!!) I go for the big switch on - yeah - it works - oh no what's all these graphical errors on my screen?

Anyway the many GFX glitches won't go away so I contacted E-Buyer again and managed to obtain another RMA. In the mean time I fitted an old NVidia GTX260 card which has the system working perfectly.

Today E-Buyer finally accept that the Radeon 6950 card is indeed faulty and they are to credit my account. They don't appear interested in the fact I've possibly spent £700 I may not have needed to spend. Anyway to take a positive outlook I now have an i7 PC plus I have around £200 to spend on a new GFX Card.

I'm looking at going back to NVidia and for the price I've been looking at these on the Scan website. Would any of you kindly soles care to give me any pointers or even suggest alternatives given the NVidia and £200 max guide.

I haven't heard much about MSI so not sure about their cards

No. 1

http://www.scan.co.u...60mhz-384-cores

No. 2

http://www.scan.co.u...s-mhdmi-plusfre

No. 3

http://www.scan.co.u...ores-plus-bf3-g

No. 4

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/1gb-gigabyte-gtx-560ti-oc-40nm-4000mhz-gddr5-gpu-900mhz-shader-1800mhz-384-cores-dvi-mhdmi-plusfree-#ProductSupport

As always any help greatly appreciated

Regards

Graeme

PS I just love re-installing FSX and its many, many addons

[jaydor 345]

Have you asked Overclockers what they would reccomend?

Also I know it will mean putting more money to it but have you looked at this:

http://www.scan.co.u...dvi-displayport

At least its futured by allowing you to run 6 screens

James