SEATAC 400 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Interesting article. The iPad is replacing the trolley case and flight bag full of pilot's flight information. http://www.fastcompany.com/1774414/the-ipad-is-the-pilots-best-friend Link to post Share on other sites
mutley 4,497 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Also good for flight sim, I have Aerosoft's RadioStack X and it is excellent, very quick on updating the sim, almost instantaneous. Link to post Share on other sites
SEATAC 400 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I was wondering if anyone had tried that Aerosoft app. It looks cool, but since I have the Saitek panel It seemed like it would be a bit redundant. You have the Saitek radio panel Joe, don't you? Do you use both? I use the iPad to display the airport diagrams and apporach charts. Save's me a lot of paper as I can just pull them up instead of printing all of them out. Link to post Share on other sites
MarkJones 0 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Use my iPad to display sky vector flight plans. Rather handy.I Link to post Share on other sites
mutley 4,497 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Rich, No I don't have the Radio Panel, I have the Multi-Panel, I did have the Switch Panel as well but it is now featuring in Brian's panel in his new cockpit! I will write a short review on the RadioStack as soon as I can. @Mark do you have a link? I am on the look out for any aviation / sim related Apps :001_th_smiles89: Cheers, Joe Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre 28 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 What are the general views regarding the iPad? I've been tempted a couple of times recently and then backed away but if they can be put to good use for flight sim stuff then that might sway it :icon_thumbup: Link to post Share on other sites
mutley 4,497 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I love my ipad, I use mine for many things, mostly on the move, the flight sim element is a bonus but I wouldn't buy one just for that. Link to post Share on other sites
SEATAC 400 Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Sabre, As far as I know there is the Aerosoft app. There is also FSXpad which gives you some flight instruments. FSXradar, which shows AI aircraft, airports, VOR's and NDB's. FSXfollow, which gives you a moving map of your flight. I hear that iGMapHd is really good also. But I have not tried any of these. There are probably more but I haven't yet found them. You can get Xplane for the iPad for $9.99, but it's not the same as the PC version. Seems to be a 'lite' version. However, there are many other useful flight sim related things that you can do. As Mark mentions, you can display the flight plans, approach charts, META data, airport diagrams, etc. There are also a lot of apps for professional pilots available as well. Even some from Jeppesen (http://ww1.jeppesen.com/main/corporate/microsites/jeppesen-mobile-tc/). Most of these apps you have to pay for of course, but I find new FSX uses for it all the time. Before I got my iPad I didn't realize that I needed one. But I digress. Richard Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre 28 Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I love my ipad, I use mine for many things, mostly on the move, the flight sim element is a bonus but I wouldn't buy one just for that. You clearly you have not met the wife, the mere suggestion of getting an iPad solely for flight sim purposes would see me well and truly living in the doghouse A have a significant birthday coming soon and I've considered and iPad for a while, I've just never been able to absolutely convince myself I would maximise its use, I've got an iPhone that I really don't utilise any where near its capability. That said I do keep coming back to the iPad and if it has FSX uses ....... well ...... off to comtemplate .. the money would pay for lots of scenery and aircraft Link to post Share on other sites
Tim_A 997 Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Some things are just worth living in the doghouse for. I certainly wouldn't want to be without mine... Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,314 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Great for Sim use but as far as real world use, I hope they(Commercial flights) still bring the paper as a backup, they don't break or run out of power. Link to post Share on other sites
SEATAC 400 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Great for Sim use but as far as real world use, I hope they(Commercial flights) still bring the paper as a backup, they don't break or run out of power. United Airlines just announced they have ordered 11,000 iPads and are eliminating paper charts entirely. "Following the FAA’s OK of using the iPad instead of paper manuals and charts, United is getting on board. On Tuesday the airline announced it is ordering 11,000 iPads for its pilots to use in the cockpit. Each iPad will be loaded with navigation and terminal chart apps from Jeppesen Mobile FliteDeck." you can read the article here:http://gigaom.com/apple/with-ipads-paper-no-longer-flies-for-united/ Link to post Share on other sites
hurricanemk1c 195 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Is there any 'charging' points/connections between iPad and aircraft? Link to post Share on other sites
mutley 4,497 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I am sure there will be as it comes with a mains charger so converting it for aviation use should not be a problem. Link to post Share on other sites
stu7708 244 Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 I wonder how long it will take for Boeing and Airbus to include an iPad dock as standard equipment in the cockpit Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Here's a pickle I have with this. What happens if the cockpit windows are compromised and the entire cockpit gets doused in water? Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I wonder how long it will take for Boeing and Airbus to include an iPad dock as standard equipment in the cockpit They already do to some extent re 787, 747-8 and A380. I'm unsure as to what the iPad will really offer. By biggest concern is that I don't want pilots relying on a single piece of technology to land the plane. Link to post Share on other sites
MarkJones 0 Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Well each pilot would probably have one so the chances of both going u/s is not very likely. Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Well each pilot would probably have one so the chances of both going u/s is not very likely. Famous last words. Personally, I wonder what the pilots think about it. I would like an approach plate that I can make notes on with a pencil - works in all conditions - particularly if I'm busy flying a plane on emergency power and don't have time to faf about with a bloody touchscreen. Link to post Share on other sites
Tim_A 997 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Here's a pickle I have with this. What happens if the cockpit windows are compromised and the entire cockpit gets doused in water? All your paper Jeppesen manuals turn to papier mache mush. Personally, I wonder what the pilots think about it. I would like an approach plate that I can make notes on with a pencil - works in all conditions - particularly if I'm busy flying a plane on emergency power and don't have time to faf about with a bloody touchscreen. Let's see now, 10kg of Jepp manuals in a massive flight bag, or a 700g iPad. Hmm... tough that one. I guess if your hobby is weightlifting you' might prefer the paper. Also, a couple of swipe gestures is hardly "faffing about", and I'm sure rummaging about trying to find the right sheet of paper in a darkened cockpit with a flashlight between your teeth in an emergency is *so* much easier! I'm guessing you either don't have an iPad or have never used one, since you seem to be so anti. Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 All your paper Jeppesen manuals turn to papier mache mush. Nonsense. Paper is fairly resilient to water for a period of time and would still be usable. Ipads on the other hand...they would need to have some sort of waterproof jacket at least. An iPad would be pooched long before paper became mush. Let's see now, 10kg of Jepp manuals in a massive flight bag, or a 700g iPad. Hmm... tough that one. I guess if your hobby is weightlifting you' might prefer the paper. Also, a couple of swipe gestures is hardly "faffing about", and I'm sure rummaging about trying to find the right sheet of paper in a darkened cockpit with a flashlight between your teeth in an emergency is *so* much easier! I'm guessing you either don't have an iPad or have never used one, since you seem to be so anti. Your point is taken about the weight and reading in the dark but for conditions to be such, again, I would be concerned about how the technology will weather various environment conditions - particularly heavy rain, smoke or heat. As for using one - yes, I have used one and I am very familiar with the general approach of such operating systems (I am a computer engineer and information director). I am very much aware of their advantages but like any aviation authority, I also consider its limitations. One thing in particular is taking notes and this would have to be a very robust and fluent ability on an iPad. In an emergency situation, the flight crew will need to plan very quickly as well as take emergency instructions from ATC. I respect your admiration for the iPad but at the end of the day, it is a piece of tech which can fail or fall short like anything else. You can't beat a notepad and pencil. Plus, who wants to put up with constant badgering from itunes when you just want to land the damn plane! Joking aside, my concern is that these iPads are just consumer-level products at the moment. If this is going to become the new stock for crew, I would expect these devices to go through the same rigorous inspection and testing as anything else on the aircraft. I don't believe the current iPad to be up to the job on that note alone. If/when EFBs become the sole solution - I would be persuaded towards integrated EFBs like those found on the A380 and 787 or 748. At least those systems have redundancies and a level of environment protection and magnetic shielding; not to mention that such purpose-built devices are designed with the pilot in mind, not the 22-year-old hipster. Link to post Share on other sites
Tim_A 997 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Nonsense. Paper is fairly resilient to water for a period of time and would still be usable. Ipads on the other hand...they would need to have some sort of waterproof jacket at least. An iPad would be pooched long before paper became mush. Chuck a Jepp manual into a bath of water and then find me a specific plate out of it. I'll wait... and wait... Oh dear, it's hardly usable. Sorry that's a fail, even if it isn't yet "mush". Your paper needs as much waterproofing as the electronics.. One thing in particular is taking notes and this would have to be a very robust and fluent ability on an iPad. In an emergency situation, the flight crew will need to plan very quickly as well as take emergency instructions from ATC. Nobody has suggested using the iPad for taking notes. The task described is as a class 1 or 2 EFB, running type A and B EFB applications. That covers chart and document display. It doesn't cover taking notes or doing anything else. (which doesn't mean that you *can't*, it's just not a requirement. If you want to use a pencil and paper to write on, you are welcome to. I respect your admiration for the iPad but at the end of the day, it is a piece of tech which can fail or fall short like anything else.You can't beat a notepad and pencil. Until the point breaks off and and you watch as it rolls into the depths of the plane and shorts out the PFD... (pencils are forbidden on spacecraft for that very reason) And a pen beats a pencil any day Plus, who wants to put up with constant badgering from itunes when you just want to land the damn plane! Or Windows activation messages come to that... Seriously though, I would have thought iTunes use would not be permitted on a 'live' device (along with mail, angry birds and just about every other irrelevant app) Joking aside, my concern is that these iPads are just consumer-level products at the moment.If this is going to become the new stock for crew, I would expect these devices to go through the same rigorous inspection and testing as anything else on the aircraft. I don't believe the current iPad to be up to the job on that note alone. The required certification for EFB devices is DO-160, which includes a rapid decompression test to 51000ft. Without this, the FAA will not certify a device for sole cockpit use. The iPad has gained this certification. If/when EFBs become the sole solution - I would be persuaded towards integrated EFBs like those found on the A380 and 787 or 748. At least those systems have redundancies and a level of environment protection and magnetic shielding; not to mention that such purpose-built devices are designed with the pilot in mind, not the 22-year-old hipster. The whole point and purpose of an EFB is in its name: It replaces the *flight bag*, i.e. the big black thing that pilots drag along behind them on wheels. It replaces the charts and contents of that bag. You are trying to gold plate the replacement to a level that is *way* beyond what is necessary, to the extent that it could become the primary navigation computer for the aircraft. That isn't it's purpose: It's an EFB not an FMS! Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 uh oh - looks like I woke the tiger... (cracks fingers) ok...here goes. Chuck a Jepp manual into a bath of water and then find me a specific plate out of it. I'll wait... and wait... Oh dear, it's hardly usable. Sorry that's a fail, even if it isn't yet "mush". Your paper needs as much waterproofing as the electronics.. TIm - come on. I'm talking about surface water and spray here. You're talking about an airplane sitting in the drink (hint - everyone's already dead) The manual would be useful for a period time (yes, even wet) and for much longer than an iPad with no waterproofing. Nobody has suggested using the iPad for taking notes. The task described is as a class 1 or 2 EFB, running type A and B EFB applications. That covers chart and document display. It doesn't cover taking notes or doing anything else. (which doesn't mean that you *can't*, it's just not a requirement. If you want to use a pencil and paper to write on, you are welcome to. I understand - I'm talking about handling multiple items during a moment of emergency. Although I am theorising here - I don't know if pilots would write notes on the plates or note but would suspect they might. Bottom line is that you need *something* to take notes with regardless which implies something in the hand apart from an iPad whereas the paper version might be the only thing. An integrated EFB doesn't need to be held unlike an iPad which means that potentially the pilot is holding an iPad and a pencil (oh god sorry) pen and is writing on some third object (possibly kneeboard/yoke pad). I see this as very fiddly - potentially...and don't you dare drop it! Read about this owner's experience or watch this video However, let's hear it from a pilot's point of view: AOPA blog on using iPad in flight Reports 2 and 3 are concerning and discuss both reliability and effective use of the interface: Report 2: Pilot’s comment: “During cruise approximately two hours into the flight, the iPad displayed a notice indicating that it had overheated, and shut down within about five seconds. I had paper charts available and used them to continue the flight, though it took a couple of minutes to find the correct position on the chart and fold it appropriately. Had this happened during a complicated instrument approach, especially without paper charts both available, safety could have been impacted.” Report 3: Pilot’s comments: “I just started using the iPad for my charts (iCharts, flight prep), I had the updated version of the Baltimore/Washington Terminal Chart up. As I made the turn from 2W6 waypoint I realized I did not have a waypoint in to go around the restricted 6611A and 6613A zone. I had the iPad terminal map zoomed in to look at the 6611A zone and saw the SFRA ring but with it zoomed in; I thought I was looking at the speed restriction zone. At that point I deviated to the north to avoid the R-6611A zone not realizing that I was flying into the SFRA. I went just north of that zone and once clear I navigated direct to my destination. I did not realize that I had flown into the SFRA until I landed. The FBO told me to contact Potomac TRACON.” Both the heat failure and the induced pilot error raise concerns about the suitability of this device. Until the point breaks off and and you watch as it rolls into the depths of the plane and shorts out the PFD... (pencils are forbidden on spacecraft for that very reason) And a pen beats a pencil any day Moving on... Or Windows activation messages come to that... Seriously though, I would have thought iTunes use would not be permitted on a 'live' device (along with mail, angry birds and just about every other irrelevant app) Yes - I would expect so. They will have custom ROMs (hopefully) although I wouldn't put it past RyanAir to miss such an obvious thing. The required certification for EFB devices is DO-160, which includes a rapid decompression test to 51000ft. Without this, the FAA will not certify a device for sole cockpit use. The iPad has gained this certification. Until it blinks out after 9 months without warning. DO-160 appears to be static testing whereas I'm speaking of longevity. Also, I take FAA certification with a grain of salt considering they relaxed standards to approve the 787. Having said that, certification is not a small feat and so I'll tip my hat there. The whole point and purpose of an EFB is in its name: It replaces the *flight bag*, i.e. the big black thing that pilots drag along behind them on wheels. It replaces the charts and contents of that bag. You are trying to gold plate the replacement to a level that is *way* beyond what is necessary, to the extent that it could become the primary navigation computer for the aircraft. That isn't it's purpose: It's an EFB not an FMS! Oh is that what a flightbag is?? Thanks for clearing that up. One of my expertise is the evaluation and implementation of technology into traditional paper-based environments.. I know of many cases where paper-based resources have sat in horrible conditions (manufacturing) and are still used long after any technology in the area has expired. It's heavy and ungainly - yes - but it works. Making everything electronic comes with a warning (several actually) and that applies most importantly in a panic situation. I would like to see a report citing the use of iPads during flight status checkrides where emergency scenarios were applied - that would give me a good idea of how these would fair. Apart from that - If the plane needs it and it's electronic - why not build it into the avionics, build it well and make sure it has redundancies (more than one)...and can survive being dropped 30cm!! (heck - one badly-timed bought of turbulence would knock a bog-standard iPad out) Based on what I've read - unless Apple is specifically manufacturing a more robust model designed for flight, the iPad is a bit dodgy to be considered part of essential kit. Further to that, I'm unsure why you suggesting that I propose an EFB to overtake a Flight Management computer. At the end of the day, we are talking about indexed, document reference - that is it. The FMS is a completely different system.. The only 'gold plating' I'm talking about is making sure the damned thing works when it's needed in a manner which is suitable to the cockpit environment (in all situations) and if anything, (since we're talking about replacing paper) gives a pilot opportunity to have less in his hand while flying a plane, not more. As such - I feel safer with this: than this: If I had a penny for every occasion, in my career, that I heard someone suggest jamming an electronic device into a staffer's hand was going to 'make all the pain go away' and ended up doing the opposite, I'd be out there flying my own jetliner. Not to say it's a bad idea - but these things don't always prove in practice what are suggested in theory...and that is something I'm fully qualified to comment on. I submit that the iPad is a step in the right direction but in present form, it is not a suitable solution for commercial aviation and I think airlines are running an awful risk putting 100% faith in a consumer market device such as this without more evolved research and development in application design; and hardware build quality. How the FAA certified this device for commercial (or was it just for GA?) is beyond my understanding, to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites
rabbitc 0 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 off topic: Tim - are you the author of Plan G? Brilliant, brilliant app, mate. Are you planning to do this for Android or iPad? Link to post Share on other sites
Tim_A 997 Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 off topic: Tim - are you the author of Plan G? Brilliant, brilliant app, mate. Yes. Thanks. Are you planning to do this for Android or iPad? Android: No iPad: Maybe something, possibly EFIS style that remotes the Plan-G data. Probably not the full app, although it may be able to run as a client using P-G like a server. I think the data set is too big for it to be entry self contained. Regardless, it won't be until after PG3, and that's on hiatus at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
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