AVSIM close FLIGHT forum

[mutley 4,497]

We have done something today that we have never done before in our entire 15 year history. We have closed down posting privileges for all users on a specific forum. The FLIGHT forum in this case. Despite not so subtle hints, suspension of users, and deletion of topics, some have persisted in trashing the forum from both sides of the "aisle" so to speak. We have had enough.

The forum will remain readable, as an example of how embarrassingly childish and parochial some can be. On the 29th, once FLIGHT is released, we will delete EVERY message in that forum and reopen it. We will open it with its own stringent set of rules. The topic of FLIGHT will not be allowed to just migrate to other forums.

http://forum.avsim.n...t-flight-forum/

So whatever you do, don't criticise MS Flight!

At this point of time I am speechless but I am sure you guys have something to say?!

[rob16584 42]

Depends if I'll get banned from here.

FSX and FS9 for me

[M31 0]

Well, I know what I think about this

Seriously Joe, thanks for mentioning this ... I was going to say something about it on my last rant but I'm growing ever milder in my old age these days and I cant be bothered anymore

For sure I read the closure thread, the whole Flight forum there was like a derailed Train wreck that morbid people have to stop by to look at and comment on somehow ... I checked in about once a week to look, it was funny but sad at the same time.

The one post that made sense for me was the anti Flight guy saying (not because he was anti flight)

Tom, you are re-righting history here

and Tom to his credit backed down and at least made the whole sad Flight saga (mostly MS's fault because of the way they handled it) read only and an archive forum.

Tom was all for deleting everything before this.

It will be interesting to see what happens once Flight is released.

[allardjd 1,853]

 

I'll be uncharacteristicly brief...

 

1) MS didn't "betray" the FS community by creating, advertising and releasing Flight. They're a company in business to make a profit and they will or will not on the wisdom and merits of what they do. MSF will neither make nor break them.

 

2) MS producing MSF does not preclude them having a change of heart some time in the future and procucing FSXI. Maybe they will - maybe they won't.

 

3) As a serious flight simmer, MSF is of no interest to me - it may be to some of you - that doesn't make either of us wrong.

 

4) As consumers, you vote with your wallet - if you like what someone has produced, buy it. If you don't like what they did - don't buy it. It may well be the most powerful form of voting available to you.

 

5) Whine, gripe or praise all you want to about MS, Apple, MS Flight, FSX, P3D, XPX, Win7, Vista, XP, the Mac, iPod, iPad, iPhone, iAnything, Airbus, Boeing, the government, the conservatives, the liberals, the BBC, Fox News, royalty, anarchists, the French, the EC, Americans, or the price of cheese. It's a free country and a (reasonably) free forum. Just keep it clean - we have some youngsters here.

 

6) If you disagree with something someone posted, engage or ignore. If you choose the former, be respectful and criticize the idea, not the person. It's what separates us from the JF General Chat forum and from silly things like just happened at AVSIM.

 

John

[M31 0]

I'll be uncharacteristicly brief...

1) MS didn't "betray" the FS community by creating, advertising and releasing Flight. They're a company in business to make a profit and they will or will not on the wisdom and merits of what they do. MSF will neither make nor break them.

I respect your opinion John, but in a way MS did betray every single one of us who helped pump up The Current MS team for what it was over the years ... a team with vision and leadership, to something quite the opposite.

Please tell me why MS in all those months of showing gorgeous scenery shots of Hawaii never once showed or hinted this was the only region, please tell me why .... and this is the money shot ... why did they never show us one shot of Golden hoops, and Treasure cache ... Why Why Why?

Its because they were leading us up a garden path is why.

If you cant see this John I don't know what to say.

[allardjd 1,853]

 

OK, sorry - now I won't be brief...

 

I think we differ mainly in degree, not direction. I would go so far as to say that Microsoft disappointed the greater part of the existing Flight Simulator community. Most everyone, at one point or another, hoped that Flight would be, in effect, FSXI.

 

The warning signs came early for me that it would not be and I dialed down any unrealistic expectations about the time of the first PC Pilot interview.

The name, abandoning the old franchise name, Flight Simulator, for tne shiny new, abbreviated one was a jarring thing for some and I remember some discussion of that at the time. Warning Sign #1.

 

Next came the early press releases, starting with the Stearman buzz-job and the woman's voice. The things on that audio track were about the metaphysics of the experience of flight, not flight physics. Warning Sign #2.

 

The press releases later, with company executives and the two interviews that were published in PC Pilot were enough for me. There were just a few lines in all of that devoted to "...continuing to support the existing user base..."; all else was about attracting a whole new set of non-technically oriented young people who could be up and flying "realistically" in just a few minutes with only mouse and keyboard, in a wonderful new simulated world.The red flags were waving, the warning strobes were flashing, the klaxons were blaring and the little hairs on the back of my neck were standing straight up. Warning Sign #3.

 

By the time he got around to describing their scheme for sewing up the add-on market I was already tuned out - I knew then that this was not the long awaited replacement for FSX and I didn't need Warning Sign #4.

 

Betrayal is a strong word - much too strong in this case. It implies that a covenant or contract was broken and that is not what happened. The only thing Microsoft owed me for my $50 purchase of their flight simulator five years ago was to honor the EULA, which incidentally is a lot more about what the user may or may not do than it is about what the vendor will or will not do. I don't know that I even thought about it at the time, but if I had, I'd have concluded that Microsoft didn't owe me anything that wasn't already in that box of software, except maybe a decent level of technical support if it was needed.

 

Microsoft is a software company, not a religion. They had no legal or moral obligation to the faithful to publish a new chapter of the holy book every other year. It was up to them to do that or not as they saw fit. Insead of Ecclesiastes II for flight simmers, we got a Buzz Tailspin comic book.

 

Thinking about the amount of money that I have spent with MS for software related materials since 2004, all I can come up with is FS9, FSX and Acceleration. I got what I paid for and didn't feel that there remained any contractual obligation, real or implied, for anything further in the future.

Like most FS users, I recognized some shortcomings and the fact that the hardware was growing beyond the capability of the software to use it efficiently and effectively. I certainly wanted to see a new version of Flight Simulator that moved the genre forward - who wouldn't. I still do. MS Flight isn't it and I recognized and wrote about my fears pretty early on. They disappointed me, but I certainly don't feel betrayed. I'll cast my vote by not buying Flight. If they publish FSXI somewhere down the road, I'll probably buy it.

 

Have you ever taken a marketing class? Marketing people drive press releases for software, before, during and after release. The bigger the company, the truer that is and MS is a very, very big company. When the suits speak to the press, what they say is carefully choreographed by the marketing people to whet appetites and raise expectations in an effort to pump up sales. that's their job. It doesn't matter if they're selling bread, beer or software, the ads and press releases for a new product typically stop just short of saying it will cure world hunger and baldness. Expect exaggeration and hyperbole in such situations - that was always the case and always will be. As they said in "The Godfather", it's just business - nothing personal.

 

John

[M31 0]

OK, sorry - now I won't be brief...

I think we differ mainly in degree, not direction. I would go so far as to say that Microsoft disappointed the greater part of the existing Flight Simulator community. Most everyone, at one point or another, hoped that Flight would be, in effect, FSXI.

The warning signs came early for me that it would not be and I dialed down any unrealistic expectations about the time of the first PC Pilot interview.

The name, abandoning the old franchise name, Flight Simulator, for tne shiny new, abbreviated one was a jarring thing for some and I remember some discussion of that at the time. Warning Sign #1.

Next came the early press releases, starting with the Stearman buzz-job and the woman's voice. The things on that audio track were about the metaphysics of the experience of flight, not flight physics. Warning Sign #2.

The press releases later, with company executives and the two interviews that were published in PC Pilot were enough for me. There were just a few lines in all of that devoted to "...continuing to support the existing user base..."; all else was about attracting a whole new set of non-technically oriented young people who could be up and flying "realistically" in just a few minutes with only mouse and keyboard, in a wonderful new simulated world.The red flags were waving, the warning strobes were flashing, the klaxons were blaring and the little hairs on the back of my neck were standing straight up. Warning Sign #3.

By the time he got around to describing their scheme for sewing up the add-on market I was already tuned out - I knew then that this was not the long awaited replacement for FSX and I didn't need Warning Sign #4.

Betrayal is a strong word - much too strong in this case. It implies that a covenant or contract was broken and that is not what happened. The only thing Microsoft owed me for my $50 purchase of their flight simulator five years ago was to honor the EULA, which incidentally is a lot more about what the user may or may not do than it is about what the vendor will or will not do. I don't know that I even thought about it at the time, but if I had, I'd have concluded that Microsoft didn't owe me anything that wasn't already in that box of software, except maybe a decent level of technical support if it was needed.

Microsoft is a software company, not a religion. They had no legal or moral obligation to the faithful to publish a new chapter of the holy book every other year. It was up to them to do that or not as they saw fit. Insead of Ecclesiastes II for flight simmers, we got a Buzz Tailspin comic book.

Thinking about the amount of money that I have spent with MS for software related materials since 2004, all I can come up with is FS9, FSX and Acceleration. I got what I paid for and didn't feel that there remained any contractual obligation, real or implied, for anything further in the future.

Like most FS users, I recognized some shortcomings and the fact that the hardware was growing beyond the capability of the software to use it efficiently and effectively. I certainly wanted to see a new version of Flight Simulator that moved the genre forward - who wouldn't. I still do. MS Flight isn't it and I recognized and wrote about my fears pretty early on. They disappointed me, but I certainly don't feel betrayed. I'll cast my vote by not buying Flight. If they publish FSXI somewhere down the road, I'll probably buy it.

Have you ever taken a marketing class? Marketing people drive press releases for software, before, during and after release. The bigger the company, the truer that is and MS is a very, very big company. When the suits speak to the press, what they say is carefully choreographed by the marketing people to whet appetites and raise expectations in an effort to pump up sales. that's their job. It doesn't matter if they're selling bread, beer or software, the ads and press releases for a new product typically stop just short of saying it will cure world hunger and baldness. Expect exaggeration and hyperbole in such situations - that was always the case and always will be. As they said in "The Godfather", it's just business - nothing personal.

John

John .. I like you, and as one very enthusiastic flight sim enthusiast to another ... I used to do this stuff to death, these days I don't think its worth falling out with anyone over anymore... not on here, I love this place.

We have what we have.

[brett 2,314]

I'll vote....Dissapointed, not betrayed. I have put to much time in fsx and can fly anywhere in the world I want, when I want in almost any aircraft I want(thanks developers). For what I got for the money, you will not hear any complaints from me, just plenty of questions and cries for help.

[M31 0]

For sure, we are all here to learn from each other, this is not Avsim.

[allardjd 1,853]

They do have a heck of a download library, however - maybe not quite as good as it once was, but still pretty good. I never used their forums.

John

[simmerhead 0]

I can't think of many games in computer history that has made emotions run quite as hot. FLIGHT is just sad. Not only because it isn't a world simulator anymore, but because of the DLC model which will suck money out of the pockets of young kids that don't know any better. I don't hate Microsoft for creating FLIGHT and not FS11, but I get the message. I am not a desired customer of theirs anymore, so I will take my business elsewhere. I'm now an Apple fanboy and have gotten my first MAC.

[ddavid 149]

So, how do you guys feel, when a youngster gets the flightsim bug from, say, MS FLIGHT (which is free), and wants to get into some serious flight simming? Do you think they'll want to join a community like ours? Shouldn't we be laying out the Red Carpet on the 29th, to welcome these newbies to our virtual world? Methinks the current hypercritical attitude of mature/experienced simmers towards MS FLIGHT - witness the over-reaction to MS FLIGHT on virtually every sim forum - is not going to be viewed as positively as we might like!

C'mon, Lads - prepare yourselves for an influx of enthusiastic new talent! You have been warned...

Cheers - Dai.

[Tim_A 997]

Avsim are entitled to do what they did. Microsoft are entitled to do what they did. If people don't like it they can vote with their wallets. Microsoft obviously don't want my money, which is fine with me. The latest build of XPX is looking pretty good, and it runs quite nicely on my Mac...

[TedG 0]

Hi guys,

Just from my personal perspective (I am NOT speaking on behalf of AVSIM by the way) the closure of that particular forum segment was directly related to the increasingly shrill number of ad hominem attacks, calls to "bomb Redmond", and continual trolling by rather dubious posters from both sides of the fence who contribute nothing valuable elsewhere...never mind certain folks that seem to confuse a high post count with "expert observation" and other assorted rubbish.

Constructive criticism and debate are cool-the above was making that segment of the board an embarassment and unpleasant to read. And I also observed it spilling over and polluting other areas of AVSIM.

Tom did the right thing in my eyes. Give folks a chance to cool off and actually fly something for a while. And then see what happens once Flight is released.

Overall the AVSIM forums are filled with quite helpful, reasonable and knowledgable individuals. The likes of Jesus Altuve (the FSX .cfg auto-tweak) and multiple others spring immediately to mind as well as various "unoffical-official" forums supporting the likes of PMDG and so forth. And I usually enjoy my time spent there.....as I do spending time here at Mutley's with its more...errrrr....dare I say intimate feel?

As far as my feelings on Flight-I don't care either way. From what I have seen it's not for me and I have plenty to do and enjoy with X-Plane and FSX for years to come.

And there is no way in hell I'd join anything like "Windows/XBOX Live" or whatever that is. I don't use Facebook or Twitter either for that matter although the thought of constantly tweeting live reports from my toilet is potentially amusing in a disgustingly whimsical way:

"Well that was like passing an onion bhaji....and I am now yelling for my son to fetch more bog roll as I seem to have an empty cardboard tube to hand...further updates to follow"

Cheers

Ted

p.s. Did I mention I find social media quite annoyingly stupid and pointless? Quick true story-I work for emergency services and one vile creature masquerading as a co-worker somehow manages to find the time to tweet and post on facebook during incidents about how hard he/she (gender neutralized to protect the foolish lol) is working. Always manages to keep boots and kit clean too while the rest of us are covered in whatever.

Anyway....back to Flight lol.

[britfrog 180]

I think the nannies at avsim need to look up the definition of forum. Forums were created by the romans where people on any side of an argument could air their views, however vehremently they felt or how they were shouted down

forums are designed to be places where heated discussion can take place because it doesnt go any further than the forum, if the avsim aunties cant handle a forum they should call it something else like aunties meeting house.

[TedG 0]

I think the nannies at avsim need to look up the definition of forum. Forums were created by the romans where people on any side of an argument could air their views, however vehremently they felt or how they were shouted down

forums are designed to be places where heated discussion can take place because it doesnt go any further than the forum, if the avsim aunties cant handle a forum they should call it something else like aunties meeting house.

Errrrrrrrrr......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FvgP5hO99o

Some of the best television ever by the way!

[Tim_A 997]

Good grief! Are they also to be castigated for not having a temple to Jupiter at one end and a basilica at the other?

[allardjd 1,853]

It seems to me if someone is paying the bills and making an on-line forum available for users, partiularly if it's ad-free as this one is, he has the right to impose limits, rules, etc, in an effort to keep the look and feel of the site more or less as he wishes it to be. That's not the same as stifling opinions not agreed with.

It's only very rarely ever been necessary to lock threads here to the best of my recollection and the only ones ever blocked (i.e. made invisible) or deleted have been pure spam. It's not done often or lightly.

John

[M31 0]

It seems to me if someone is paying the bills and making an on-line forum available for users, partiularly if it's ad-free as this one is, he has the right to impose limits, rules, etc, in an effort to keep the look and feel of the site more or less as he wishes it to be. That's not the same as stifling opinions not agreed with.

It's only very rarely ever been necessary to lock threads here to the best of my recollection and the only ones ever blocked (i.e. made invisible) or deleted have been pure spam. It's not done often or lightly.

John

Good points John, and you are of course quite right ... and I also do appreciate the more relaxed atmosphere here at Mutley's Hanger compared to some forums I frequent (not necessarily Flight Sim ones) keep up the good work Mutley and admins, its appreciated

[Jess-b 420]

Whist it's easy to be critical of Avsim's decision to close the flight forum (something they say has never happened in 15 years!) I have to say that they did the right thing.

Forums are indeed a place for discussion, and quite often, a heated discussion. But the flight forum passed heated earlier this year and degenerated in to little more than a bar room brawl full of mud slinging from both sides. Personal attacks also became rife with at least one member receiving several PM's that were little more than personal accusations of the most visious nature. That's not debate, and in person, that's assault.

There were othe memos who were deliberatly bated in threads, insulted and mocked. There were also multiple threads posted covering the same info, over and over again. In short a mess.

With tempers running so high, it's best to let everyone calm down and wait to see what's actually on offer on the 29th.

As far as Microsoft goes, I agree with John. They owe us nothing. We had no contract with them to keep producing a new fs every 2 years. Whist we can feel cheated all we want, ms have made a decision and their going to have to live with it whether it's the right one, time will tell. I have my thoughts on the subject and the next year will show me how close they are to reality.

The final thing to remember is that our hobby needs new blood. I'm 35 now and at most fs shows, I'm amoung the younger end of the visitors. Without new blood our hobby will die. So if flight can pull in a new audience, great. Because they'll demand more than flight offers, and if that happens, I'd wager ms won't be slow to cash in.

Jess B

[hurricanemk1c 195]

Well, my opinion on this matter is this - I don't really care. I might download it on the 29th or later, to check it out.

I also don't mind MS selling add-ons through their own store,but please, allow 3rd party people in. Just look at RailSimulator.com with 'Train Simulator 2012/RailWorks 3' - they produce their own stuff (coming up for release is the Class 70, and recently released was the Woodhead route) but allow 3rd party people in (Oovee used to sell their own stuff, Just Trains do, MeshTools, CreativeRail and IHH to name a few) and let freeware developers in (the UK Train Sim Freeware Packs are a shining example, amongest others). I suspect many won't mind if Microsoft do just that explained above. Also, using this system enables the orginal devs (in this case RS.com) to maintain a reasosnable cash-flow and keeping 3rd party people 'in the loop'

And there is competition - Just Trains and RailSim.com have released the Class 67 as completely different models with different activites (missions in FSX money) and 'extras'. You can vote with the hard-earned cash on who gets your money.

[charlie 6]

I remember when FSX came out and I upgraded and my disappointment at how bad it was and that it didn't come near to FS9, I couldn't run it properly and it was graphically inferior as a result...after x years I am finally happy with FSX. I am happy to fly either. Sit and wait, see what happens. No point in raising blood pressure over this, disappointed? Yes, stopping me enjoying my hobby? I don't think so!

[allardjd 1,853]

They did it again.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/363450-looks-like-fsx-is-here-to-stay/

This one had none of the out of control flaming going on, mostly WX reports (tongue in cheek, I think) and a few mildly critical posts about Flight. They are tolerating NO criticism of MSF at the AVSIM forums.

The man paying the bills has the right, but not so sure it's well advised. Unlike the AVSIM thread that was the first topic of this thread, there's just nothing in the latest locked thread to get upset about unless you don't ever want to hear a discouraging word about MSF.

John

[mutley 4,497]

Another good reason to join in here

[TedG 0]

Honestly I think its more a case of keeping the barn door closed until the stables are mucked out .

Seriously though....a fresh start when Flight is actually released to the public gives the opportunity for a more informed discussion rather than dealing with NDA-breaking speculation from all corners and keeps the more virulent for/against types at bay.

I keep out of the whole Flight thing mainly as I really don't care either way....but it is interesting to observe how a large segment of the more argumentative trolls and useless "lookit my post count" types have dried up and disappeared. Although I am sure they will return en masse once the temp bans are lifted and the Flight forum section is re-opened.

Cheers

Ted

p.s. I wouldn't be a moderator in a million years!