Maybe just dreaming

[Quickmarch 488]

Here's March, heading off at a tangent, again! There's been quite a bit of discussion on this forum and the upshot (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) is the FSX is processor hungry and benefits from lots of additional memory on board. Hybrid hard drives are an up-an-coming thing and the more video adapter, the better. 

 

New developments are heading me down a different path: The nav computer on my boat is acting up. Small wonder, the thing has been halfway around the world in a less than computer friendly environment. So, I get to thinking (sometimes bad) and come up with this brilliant idea: Why not buy a hot enough machine to be able to use it as my main FSX platform? I already sit at the nav station flying a 15" laptop while there's an unused 19" monitor staring out at me right behind it.

 

The existing ship's computer is an EPIA unit originally intended for automobile computing and thus runs quite happily on the boat's 12VDC system. As I am now back in BC with no intention of venturing much further than Alaska, power is not going to be a big issue (not like spending months off the grid). I should be able to run this 450W Lenovo unit and accessories off my battery/inverter system (1000W Pure Sine Wave).

 

Lenovo makes a small form factor unit, designated M93. Here's a precis of the specs:

 

Small Form Factor Pro

13.3 X 4 X 14.8 (inches)

Ports - 6x USB 3.0, 2x USB 2.0, VGA, 2x Display Ports, 2x PS/2, 2 serial ports, parallel port, RJ45, audio in, audio out, mic

 

Standard: Intel Core i5-4570 (6MB Cache, up to 3.60GHz)

Optional: Intel Core i7-4770 (8MB Cache, up to 3.9GHz)

 

****Windows 7 Pro 64 bit**** 

 

Video is an integrated graphics card.

Top Upgrade: AMD Radeon HD2570, 2GB, VGA+HDMI 

 

Memory is upgradable all the way to 32GB, but I may stick with the 8GB that I'm currently running.

 

They offer a 500GB+8GB Hybrid drive, 2.5", SATA for an additional $40 over the stock 500GB, 7200rpm, SATA

 

What say you? Will it (thanks Brian) VLY?

[allardjd 1,853]

Brilliant idea, March.

Looks like the i7 with the add-on graphics card and 8-16 GB memory would put you in very, very good shape. Grabbing a high powered machine while Win7-64 is still available is a good move too. At some point, MS is going to stop letting the OEMs install anything except 8.1 and you probably don't want to be there.

John

[phil white 274]

I have one of those Hybrid drives in my machine, much better in my opinion. Is it the from Seagate?

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

Ha, i'm thinking down the road doing exactly the same thing.

 

I also live on a sailboat and don't really have decent Nav equipment installed yet. I don't relish the idea of buying a dedicated Marine Nav GPS unit as awesome as they are due to expense (3,ooo bucks for some of the nicer systems with all the whistles).

I understand their are free NOAA charts available, and nav software that can parse em, linked with UPS connectable GPS units one can turn a desktop or laptop into a decent Navigator that can nearly duplicate the functions of those fancy MarSatNavs.

 

I installed my dual monitors such that I'll be able to flip one around and tuck it under my galley shelf, viewable from the cockpit and leave the other flipped to the salon for the the Netflix viewing (...I am assuming a global satellite internet network with streaming Netflix available from anywhere on the globe within a decade...so I'll be ready for it ... LOL)...or DVDs.

 

So ya, at some point my FSX machine will become a Marine Sat Nav too.

 

Looking forward to details on what you come up with!

 

Matt.

[PCAviator 30]

March,

 

The fastest processor would be better (but maybe more power hungry?) and definitely want the upgraded video card. The integrated video wont cut it for FSX. RAM not overly important for FSX so 8Gb will suffice (minimum anyway for a 64-bit system IMO).

 

Hard Drive... no matter what size u get, you will always fill it with something!

[Quickmarch 488]

Like anything else, compromise rears it's ugly head.

 

Now it's power. Because this computer has to do double duty in the boat's navigation system it has to run off 12VDC. I can't rely on inverters (I've gone through two in six years, and they only fail at important times). There's also the conversion losses to consider when going from DC-AC-DC (never mind the jokes).

 

I've had to downsize my expectations and go one better than a high-end laptop (which is what I use now for FSX). The laptop does fine. Right now it's running a complete ORBX/OZx scenery suite as well as quite a few aircraft. I haven't tried the PMDG 737 or the Dash 8 yet. The extra 4GB of RAM that I added on Bruce's recommendation has cured the stutters. That laptop is an i5 with embedded NVIDIA GT330 video.

 

The new spec is:

 

i7 4470

GT620 (or whatever they can find that is better, but fits the power budget, possibly AMD 7450)

8GB Ram

120GB Kingston SSD Boot drive

1 TB Data drive

PSU is Mini-Box M4-ATX (250W - 300W peak)

Win7 Pro

 

I'm going to try working with the builder to figure out how to run a better video card off a 120VAC power supply while in port, then disconnect video card and AC power to go with the embedded video and the DC PSU when at sea. I don't know yet, but that may be as simple as changing the video output from the card to the motherboard. The power end is easy; we've already agreed to leave the AC PSU in place in the enclosure as the Mini-Box DC PSU won't fit internally. I'be purchased the M-B PSU enclosure and I'll mount it externally.

 

I'll let you know how everything goes. I'm expecting the new box in about a week. 

 

[allardjd 1,853]

Is an SSD boot drive reliable enough for a nav computer? I'm under the impression they often have a fairly short life-span.

John

[brett 2,284]

Hope everything works out for you March.

 

God grant me the skill to follow the blueprints as planned and perform the job at hand.  
God grant me the piece of mind to be able to trust the people I follow behind.
God grant me the right voltage so my motors aren't broke and start to smoke.  
God grant me the skill to make my connections right so the lights burn bright.
God grant me enough time to do what needs to be done and not place me under the gun.
God grant me patience and understanding even when my job is so demanding.
God grant me the right company to make sure the job gets through.

[Quickmarch 488]

Is an SSD boot drive reliable enough for a nav computer? I'm under the impression they often have a fairly short life-span.

John

 

Yikes!

 

I hadn't heard that one, John - I better look into it. 

[Bruce (a.k.a. brian747) 142]

I think it depends on your definition of a "short" lifespan.

 

I have two SSDs (different manufacturers), and a special program (see http://ssd-life.com/eng/screenshots.html) that predicts their "estimated lifetime". One of them (which is already about two years old) is estimated as having 6 years and 10 months to go, and the other 8 years and 2 months.

 

I rather doubt whether the rest of my computer will last that long....  

 

Cheers,

 

B.

 

[PCAviator 30]

Early SSD technology had issues with lifespan, but apparently the newer SSD technology is as reliable and offers lifespans as long as traditional hard drives... in some cases, lifespans even greater, so the SSD longevity thing is probably not an issue these days at all.

[Quickmarch 488]

Whew!

 

Thanks for the reassurances, Brian.

 

The hard drive in the nav computer has been replaced on a yearly duty cycle as it is. I always have two drives for the computer. Take out the drive - take it to the techies - ghost the contents to a new (identical) drive - put the previous drive in the anti-static bag, then in a storage container - hammer a spike through the heart of the oldest one, then toss it on the fire.

 

If I had the space, I'd run a RAID setup. Not having the space, this was the next best strategy. When I went away, SSD technology couldn't produce a drive large enough to hold WinXP. Amazing what 6 years will yield in the computer world. In fact, when I went away in 2007 I thought a ~100GB hard drive was monstrous.

 

I delivered the PSU to the builder yesterday. That's another story. Living in Canada has its downsides when ordering from the USA. The $94 PSU cost $85.78 in shipping/duty/taxes to get it across the border via UPS - the ONLY shipping option offered. 

[allardjd 1,853]

Early SSD technology had issues with lifespan...

Guess I was living in the past again. Any fact, factiod or other tidbit of wisdom you know or think you know in the world of computers that's more than six months old is probably wrong.

John

[Quickmarch 488]

Isn't there some sort of mystical factor that says computer hardware doubles in capacity every year?

 

I certainly know that software doubles in bloat every year. Doesn't do a damn thing more but requires twice the drive space to house it. Don't get me going, but I remember when we had spreadsheets and databases and 10GB harddrives.

 

I also remember when the milkman delivered milk from a horse-drawn cart, but my wife won't let me tell those stories.

[brett 2,284]

Haha, I think my first PC only had a quarter gig to play with. I also remember the local milkman delivered glass bottles into a little metal cooler box, he also walked all the way into the backyard to do it. He had a truck, so I guess I'm younger than you.

[allardjd 1,853]

My grandmother had an icebox refrigerator and I have vague childhood memories of a horse-drawn ice wagon making deliveries to her home. This was shortly after the end of WWII and most had electric refrigerators by then but home ice-delivery was still available.

We lived in a mid-west small town and had the same home milk delivery Brett describes, at least into the late 50s.

John

[J G 927]

Here in the Uk we still get milk delivered to our doorstep in glass bottles.- Not by horse and cart though, but by truck.  When I was a kid the milk was delivered by a three wheeled electric cart called a Milk Float. Very eco-friendly so I guess we have taken a step back. I didn't have a PC then, but that was because they weren't invented yet.

 

 

20 years later.....   (I still have one... IBM XT not milk float - silly!)

 

[brett 2,284]

That's a cool looking truck.  I remember something like this,

 

 

[hifly 925]

My father was a milkman, never met him, that's why I don't remember him.

[Quickmarch 488]

I got the new machine this afternoon. No time to really play with it, but I did do a couple installs to see how things go. I started the install process on some of the basics like the WiFi hookup and the printer drivers. These sort of things seem to have to go on C: because there's no option in their install programs to change the drive. I understand this for drivers, but I would like to put as much of the slow access stuff on the big drive and reserve C: for software only.

 

It's getting scary though. The SSD that I bought is a 128GB. By the time I got it from the computer builder it was showing 77GB of 111 available. 111 - ??? What's that all about? Where did 13% of the capacity go? Most of what's on it is the Win7 Pro O/S and it's inherent Microsoft hanger-ons. Things like Silverlight - I don't want it so I'll uninstall it. It's going to be quite a witch hunt trying to sort out what most of it is.

 

I installed the navigation software on the 1TB (D:) hard drive that's in there. However, there's still a lot of stuff gets written to C: drive and it's chipping away at the SSD pretty quickly.

 

What's going to happen when I try to install FSX? I assume I install everything on D:\FSX and accept the writes to the hidden files and things like C;\Program Data.

 

I'm not an expert on this stuff by any stretch, so any suggestions will be appreciated.

[allardjd 1,853]

March,

Re the missing drive space - generally the sales literature computes drive capacity in thousands of bytes, so a 128 GB drive would have a capacity of around 128,000,000,000 bytes. The operating system and other more nerdy sources consider a KB to be 1,024 bytes, based on powers of two, which is really a more meaningful way of measuring it. Not sure if that accounts for all of it but you can bet that's where some of the discrepancy comes from.

John

[J G 927]

Which version of Windows are you using?

 

Windows 7 creates a hidden partition on your disk for its own use. Mine is about 5 gig from memory. 

 

Where is your windows swap file space and how big is it?

 

to find this out, click on the start button, right click Computer and then click Properties.

 

In the left pane, click Advanced system settings.  Administrator permission required If you're prompted for an administrator password or confirmation, type the password or provide confirmation.

 

On the Advanced tab, under Performance, click Settings.

 

Click the Advanced tab, virtual memory will be detailed in the second box down. Click change. this will allow you to see where the virtual memory is.  If it is on your SSD then that is another chunk of space gone.

 

Having said that, moving it to a different and non SSD drive will probably impact performance.   

 

 

 

 

[Quickmarch 488]

@JB - so that would drop the 128 to 125 right off the bat. (128GB/1024)

 

@JG -

 

- Win7 Pro

- The swap file (Pagefile?) is on C: for sure. As received the file is "Windoze Managed" and is currently 8051MB. I will change that as per Brian's instructions when he recommended changes to my laptop. That will mean more capacity required on C: The machine has 8GB (7.86 usable). 

 

That is quite likely where some of the missing bytes are, but not 17GB. Possibly Windoze and the pagefile are the culprits occupying the first 17GB. Maybe the bumph that is added to the machine (such as the mentioned Silverlight) is then the difference between 111 and 77 - another 34 GB ??? Yikes!!!!!

 

There is a MSI Graphics card that I have not found any details on, yet. I was told that the video card would have an additional 2GB of memory onboard. Probably quite a bit of overhead installed (besides the drivers).

 

I'm going into town this morning and I'll corner the techie and get some answers from him.

 

BBack

 

 

[Quickmarch 488]

The techie's answer is that The NTFS file system requires that much overhead. Yikes! I recall when whole systems ran a fraction of that.

 

Certainly puts the FAT in the FAT. Ah, well! 

 

I'm starting a brand new install from my FSX Gold (Acceleration) disks. Sure looks strange to see just the stock aircraft.

 

 

[J G 927]

I am glad you managed to reconcile the space on your drive.

 

Always remember the cheaper memory becomes the more developers will rely on it.  Its a question of supply and demand really, the more memory you supply, the more the software developers will demand it.

 

I know this to be true as by profession, err, I am a software designer.