patrico 8 Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 can anyone tell me on reading a star chart, what does C** and F** mean, where **is the landing runaway Link to post Share on other sites
Quickmarch 488 Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Can you post a picture of the chart in question? "Where" these marks are on the chart could be a clue to their meaning. Here's a good reference for you to look at: Jeppesen: http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/business/ifr-paper-services/glossary-legends.pdf Other: http://f-air.cz/data/E-LEARNING/vycvikovekurzy/ifr/ifrjeppesen/SID_DP_and_STAR_Legend.pdf Asterisks (*) are used to note "part time" facilities, but, to the best of my knowledge, there's usually only one. Letters are often used on European STARS to note which runway a STAR applies to. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Runways are not depicted on STARs, just airport symbols. John Link to post Share on other sites
Quickmarch 488 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Not entirely true, John. I am not very familiar with US STARs, but I use Canadian ones daily. For an example, please see (one example) IMPOR EIGHT (CYYJ) - This STAR serves LAFFO which is the IF for the ILS/DME or ILS/RADAR approach to RWY27. The runway is very clearly marked and noted on the STAR. Other examples that I use everyday: BOOTH6, a radar vector set-up for RWY 08L, 08R and 12 and CANUK SIX, RWY's 27L and 27R at CYVR Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I'm mainly familiar with the US ones and they usually just show a circle for the airport, particularly in areas where there are several in the area. EDIT: \Here's a pretty typical one... this is San Diego. Only two airports are shown. You can see the ILS feathers at San Diego Intl but those are often not shown. I looked at O'Hare and the feathers are not on any of those. The STAR gets you into the neighborhood. You get offered an approach while inbound and can accept it or ask for a different one. Whatever IAP you and ATC agree on, they'll typically vector you to the final approach course, unless you opt to fly the whole procedure, which isn't going to make you very popular with the ATC guys at a busy airport. STARs aren't for the approach or landing phase, they are for the arrival phase and some of them start hundreds of miles out. There is usually not much detail about the airport(s) on the STAR. That's what the IAPs and airport diagrams provide. JDA Link to post Share on other sites
Quickmarch 488 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I understand what you're saying and I'm pretty familiar with the STAR format (in this country). The answer given to Patrick was pretty general and I (obviously) assumed that all countries STARs were similar. Definitely not the case in the USA. Funny, but I've used US STARs many times and never noticed the difference in the airport/rwy depiction. In any case, I was unable to answer his question - just direct him to some references. Can you shed some light on the double-asterisk question? I've never tried adding an attachment to one of these posts, and cannot see how (or IF) it can be done. I'll post a JPG of a CYVR STAR for reference. Link to post Share on other sites
hurricanemk1c 195 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 UK ones are the same as Canadian ones - just checked my charts for Heathrow, Edinburgh and East Midlands Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Thanks everyone for the great information. I guess my question was not very clear. I only see it on the FMC in pln mode. The 2 asterisks depict the relevant runaway number, (could it depict the state of configuration the aircraft should be in at this juncture which is usually just before touchdown Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Patrick, Can you post a screenshot of the C** and F** business? The only things that occur to me are "Circle" for a "circle to land" approach on a different runway, or "Final" for a straight-in. Understand that's not based on any knowledge, just a shot in the dark. John Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I am working on the screen shot guys, Its not on charts only on FMC and I suspect the one with the F108 means final position for full configuration to be in place prior to landing Link to post Share on other sites
Quickmarch 488 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I take it, then, that the FMC in question is for the F108. They all (Boeing vs Bombardier, vs etc, etc) have different methods of input/output. Is there nothing in the documentation for this specific FMC? Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted August 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted August 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 finally a screen shot FYI I am on approach to 08r @ EGKK Link to post Share on other sites
Christopher Low 63 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I suspect that "FI08R" means FINAL 08R, since the bearing is 79 degrees. Maybe the "CI08R" stands for "CENTRE INBOUND 08R"? I'm guessing at that one. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think they are Terminal Waypoints. I can't find any with those exact names in the stock FSX waypoints list but the naming is consistent with those IDs. That would explain the differences in bearings and distances that your FMC is showing. Looking deeper now... John EDIT: There are waypoints with those exact names associated with LFPG, in France. Still not finding any near EGKK. Could these be from a PMDG database? JDA Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I found this VATSIM flight plan that includes those two items as waypoints. They don't seem to exist in stock FSX but must be added by VATSIM or something on your computer that's getting them from the current AIRAC or something like that... Link to post Share on other sites
Quickmarch 488 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Getting clearer all the time. The F and C (1)08 referred to is actually F and C (I)08. Looks to me that Chris and John are right - these are waypoints The following lines from my FSX/PMDG/NAVDATA/wpnavfix.txt: (I don't recall the exact airac cycle that these are from but it's old) CI08 CI08 -34.063361 25.466167 FI08 FI08 -24.615689 25.795970 These co-ordinates translate to: 34 03.8 S, 24 27.9 E - West of Port Elizabeth, S.Africa 24 36.9 S, 25 47.8 E - North of Gabarone, Botswana Strange, though, as you remarked that you were inbound to EGKK (Gatwick) and that airport is nowhere near the lat/lon described in the lines above. EGKK is centered on 51.148055568, -0.190277696 EDIT: Oops! Posted after JA. His research at least gets you into the proper hemisphere. Sure enough - I added the "R" and found: CI08R CI08R 48.977770 2.288814 - (Downtown Paris, FR) FI08R FI08R 48.986086 2.439478 - (a little North and West of CI08R) EDIT the EDIT: - Found my Airac info in FSX/PMDG/NAVDATA/cycle_info.txt AIRAC cycle : 1108 Revision : 1 Valid (from/to): 28/JUL/2011 - 24/AUG/2011 Link to post Share on other sites
mutley 4,487 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well done you guys! We're not worthy! Joe Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 I fully agree Joe well done guys Link to post Share on other sites
stu7708 244 Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 Looking at the approach chart for the ILS/DME approach in to 08R those two waypoints seem to correlate with two points marked along the ILS glide path. Even the altitude restrictions match, although they have no name given on the chart.. The first one (CI08R) looks like the point where you should intercept the glide slope (At DME 8.6) and the second one is about midway down to the runway (at DME 4)... No idea on what the C and F would stand for though... Link to post Share on other sites
stu7708 244 Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 And as a side note I seem to recall seeing similar waypoints on other approaches when flying the PMDG NGX. In my video of a rather dodgy landing at ESSA below there is for example a waypoint called CI19L at the point where I initiate my turn to finals... Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 maybe C stands for initial Configuration and F = Final Configuration Link to post Share on other sites
patrico 8 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 thanks Stu, what ATC are you using ? Link to post Share on other sites
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