CRJ-200PF crashed in northern sweden

[stu7708 244]

Sad news this morning.

 

Late last night a Swedish registered CRJ200-PF hauling mail for the Norwegian Postal Services from Oslo-Gardemoen to Tromsö crashed in the mountains in northern Sweden.

 

The crash site was found by a F16 from the Norwegian Air Force three hours after a Mayday call was picked up by both Swedish and Norwegian Controllers.

 

Not much to go in yet as rescue personell still haven't made it to the site, but in the link below there's a video of the alleged site (text is in Swedish, but hopefully Google Translate can help you non-Swedish speakers to understand).

 

Looks like it went pretty much straight down in to the ground, and either disintegrated almost completely as it hit, or is submerged by wast amounts of snow. Ground elevation at the location is roughly 3.000 feet, and it came down rapidly from FL 330. ModeS transponder data from FlightRadar24.com indicates that it plummeted from FL330 to FL117 in 60 seconds...

 

R.I.P to the two pilots that were the only persons on-board.

 

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/norrbotten/poliskalla-planen-har-stortat-ratt-ner-i-backen

[stu7708 244]

And of course the tabloids are having a field day with this...

 

Nose dive to the ground is in there off course (but given the fact that the impact crater is reported as only 20 meters across and 15 meters deep I guess it's not impossible)..

 

But the latest head line is "It was impossible to eject from the aircraft" is just mindbogglingly stupid.. it's also stated that the fact that there were no ejection seats is the reason why Swedish Police have opened an investigation for violations of aviation safety 

[needles 1,011]

A sad day Micke.

So when are we going to be getting ejector seats in passenger jets?

Crazy.

RIP Pilots.

[wain 879]

Very sad...is it a place where there are very harsh conditions?

RIP to the pilots...

[dodgy-alan 1,587]

Such a sad occasion, as has been said, the press have no bloody idea what they are talking about.

[stu7708 244]

Wayne.. at this time of year very harsh on the ground. -30 degrees Celsius reported today, and also very remote with helicopters basically being the only viable transportation for getting there...

[brett 2,303]

I feel for the pilots and their families.  

 

Does the snow ever recede from that area or is it always there?

[stu7708 244]

@Brett: I haven't been this far north in Sweden myself so I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure most of the northern parts are free from snow during the summer months..

There were an other accident in the same area a few years ago, when a Norwegian Air Force C-130 flew straight into mount Kebenekasie (the highest peak in Sweden), and I'm pretty sure they didn't find the CVR nor the FDR until the snow was gone a few months after the event...

[brett 2,303]

Thanks Micke, hopefully they will be able to get up there and find out what happened.

[allardjd 1,853]

What a shame.  It will be interesting to find out the cause.  RIP the pilots and peace to the families.  

 

John

[stu7708 244]

Both the CVR and FDR is reported found, but severely damaged.

Fingers crossed the memory modules can be read without issues!

[allardjd 1,853]

I guess I'm kind of surprised that an aircraft of that size in cargo service would have a CVR and FDR installed.

 

John

[Bruce (a.k.a. brian747) 142]

Requiescat in pace the Spanish Captain and French F/O.       

 

Having spent some months in RAF Puma helicopters flying in northern Norway during their harsh winters I would venture to confirm what Micke has said about flying in that area at this time of the year -- the conditions can indeed be bitterly cold and very changeable, with icing, sudden blinding snowstorms (and/or equally treacherous mists) making life very difficult if you're anywhere near the hard stuff below you.

 

But having said that, I'm left with two questions in my mind.

 

1. If en route from Oslo to Tromsö, it seems a little unusual that they should be over northern Sweden? (But it could be a flight plan thing, I guess, especially since other reports place the crash on the Norwegian/Swedish border).

 

2. "Flightradar reported that the aircraft fell quickly, from an altitude of 33,000 feet to 11,725 feet in just 60 seconds." Ouch. That's not the result of low level weather conditions -- it sounds as though perhaps icing caused a stall, or some such thing?    

 

But it's so sad, notably for the families of those who were killed. Hopefully something may be learned from the recorders.

 

'“It was a powerful crash, right into the ground,” Daniel Lindblad, spokesman for the Swedish rescue service, told news bureau NTB. A Scandinavian news source said the pilot, from Spain, was 42 and the co-pilot, from France, was 34. Between the two men, they had 6,000 hours of flight experience.' ( http://aircargoworld.com/crj-200pf-carrying-mail-crashes-in-northern-sweden/ )

 

"Flight hours: Captain 2,050 hours on type, total hours 3,173

First officer: 900 hours on type, total hours 3,050"

 

B.

 

 

 

 

 

[allardjd 1,853]

Is icing likely or even possible at 33,000'?

 

John

[stu7708 244]

@Brian: Well, a direct path from Oslo-Gardemoen (ENGM) to Tromsö (ENTC) will be skirting along the border between Norway and Sweden all the way north. Looking at the Enroute Charts for the area I'd guess they were on Airway T65, between the points TIPEL and GILEN when it happened. Probably had a route something like this ENGM via SID to NUVSA, then onto EGAGP and then via N150 to MAVIP, and on to T65 heading north.

 

@John: The investigator of flight AF447 claims it is, although from what I've read the weather at altitude was ideal for flying, so probably not icing in this case.. early reports sounded like they had already ruled that out.. Over on Pprune there are some users pointing out similarities to Alaska Airline Flight 261. As the events appears to have unfolded I must agree there appears to be validity to the comparison.

 

As for the fact that it had both CVR and FDR, the plane in question was converted from a regular CRJ-200 into a postal freighter in 2006, and I'd be surprised if a passenger jet of this size didn't have that equipment installed.

[Bruce (a.k.a. brian747) 142]

@ Micke

 

When I said "...it could be a flight plan thing, I guess..." I must admit I hadn't dug out the charts. Thank you for that information.     

 

@John

 

What was in my mind was a rather vague recollection of a phenomenon called ice crystal icing, although the details of it had become a little fuzzy. However the Internet knows all —

 

High-Altitude Ice Crystal Icing

 

This type of icing does not appear on radar due to its low reflectivity. Neither airplane ice detectors nor visual indications reliably indicate the presence of ice crystal icing conditions. It is often undetected by the flight crew and has caused many high-altitude engine failures.

 

According to NASA scientists Harold E. Addy Jr. and Jospeh P. Veres of the Glenn Research Center in Cleveland in “An Overview of NASA Engine Ice-Crystal Icing Research,” (NASA/TM-2011-217254, November 2011), “It is a problem whose frequency is alarmingly high…. Evidence indicates that engine icing incidents caused by ice accreting inside the core of jet-based engines have been occurring for over two decades.”

 

Ice shed into the compressor can drive the engine into stall due to the combined effect of several mechanisms (lost inertial and heat energy to the ice), as well as the inefficiency of airfoils with ice on them. The chain of events begins with a sudden flow reversal (compressor surge) followed by engine rotor speed decay (engine “stall”) as airflow is reduced due to the presence of airflow separation in compressor stages. The combustor remains lit; however, due to lack of airflow, the EGT typically rises quickly.

 

Flameout occurs due to quenching of the combustor following the ingestion of ice. Engine damage happens when engine blades and vanes are impacted by shed ice. Minor blade-tip curl has occurred. Rare instances of blade release have occurred.

 

(The above extracts are from http://aviationweek.com/bca/high-altitude-ice-crystal-icing ).

 

Thus prompted, I was then able to pin down my recollection of the topic as emanating from the more recent editions of the Boeing 747 Flight Crew Training Manual (my preferred bedtime reading, as you know    ). The FCTM has this to say:

 

Ice Crystal Icing

 

Ice Crystal Icing Ice crystals at high altitude are often not considered a threat to jet transport

airplanes because they don't lead to airframe icing. However, a condition exists

where solid ice particles can cool interior engine surfaces through melting and ice

buildup can occur. When the ice breaks off, it can result in engine power loss or

damage. Symptoms can include surge, flameout or high vibration.

 

Typically, the engine power loss has occurred at high altitude, in clouds, as the

airplane is flying above an area of convective weather where little or no airplane

weather radar returns were observed at the flight altitude. In other cases, flight

altitude radar returns were observed and pilots conducted the flight to avoid these

areas. Despite pilot avoidance of reflected weather, engine power losses have

occurred. Avoidance of ice crystals is a challenge because they are not easily

identified.

 

Boeing has been an integral part of ongoing studies to better understand ice crystal

icing. For more detailed information on this subject, see the Boeing Flight

Operations Technical Bulletin titled Ice Crystal Icing. This bulletin provides

information about actual events, including those experiencing engine power loss

and damage associated with flight in ice crystal icing. It also provides methods of

recognizing ice crystal icing conditions and suggested actions if ice crystal icing

is suspected. An Ice Crystal Icing Supplementary Procedure is also available in

the Adverse Weather section, Volume 1 of the FCOM.

 

Note: An Ice Crystal Icing NNC is available in the QRH.

 

That Boeing AERO bulletin lists this as the first of the possible scenarios in which ice crystal icing is encountered:

 

Researchers have identified several conditions that are connected to engine ice crystal icing events. The most important factors are:

• High altitudes and cold temperatures. Commercial airplane power-loss events associated with ice crystals have occurred at altitudes of 9,000 to 39,000 feet, with a median of 26,800 feet, and at ambient temperatures of -5 to -55 degrees C with a median of -27 degrees C. The engine power-loss events generally occur on days when the ambient temperature is warmer than the standard atmosphere...

 

But (with all due respect to the gentlemen from NASA) when viewed against the number of flights that take place I had thought that this phenomenon was statistically rare. When I was trying to think of something that might cause a descent like that from FL330, ice crystal icing occurred to me only as a remote possibility — we can place it very firmly in the Wild Guess category, I reckon!    

 

Cheers,

 

bruce

a.k.a. brian747

 

[J G 927]

Have they ruled out foul play yet?  What is the security around shipping mail like? A parcel bomb with an altitude detonator could do this, but a bit unlikely as the debris was not widely dispersed.  Just asking.   

[stu7708 244]

In the press conference the company held around lunch on the day of the accident they mentioned that Norwegian Postal Services were responsible for screening of the cargo, and I assume that means sweeps for traces of explosives as well.. 

 

But it hasn't been ruled out from official sources at this point.  Still, as you say, with the very limited debris field I'd say it's a tad far fetched.. unless someone managed to deliberately tamper with the plane to cause a malfunction. 

[stu7708 244]

Although from what I've understood there is no need to declare the content of a package when sending it domestically in Norway, so there is no way to know if there were any dangerous cargo in the packages.

[allardjd 1,853]

If I'm reading all that about Ice Crystal Icing correctly, it's only engines that are susceptible to it and it only causes power loss/engine failures.  It does not affect airframe components and could not induce an aerodynamic stall.  Have I got that right?  

 

If so, that kind of thing would not explain the extremely rapid descent.  I concur that, though a real phenomenon, it must be a pretty rare thing.  I believe conventional, garden variety airframe icing is pretty much impossible at that kind of height.

 

The Alaska Airlines flight Micke cited was an elevator trim failure due to maintenance issues - it stripped the threads right out of the jackscrew/nut, I believe.  I guess something similar with elevator trim could account for this accident, but so could a half-dozen other things.  Hopefully the recorders will give some clues, if not provide a smoking gun.

 

John

[Captain Coffee 2,030]

Have they ruled out foul play yet?  What is the security around shipping mail like? A parcel bomb with an altitude detonator could do this, but a bit unlikely as the debris was not widely dispersed.  Just asking.   

 

Unless one of the pilots cut off a psycho mad scientist on the road sometime in the past, and incurred his wrath and vengeance...I can't see why anyone would bother to "Terrorize" a cargo aircraft/airline.

 

Jihad...on the mail? Because there was probably some pornography in there somewhere, or something heretical.

 

 

Condolences to the pilots and their families.

 

I am waiting to see what mechanical part failed personally.

 

-Matt.

[stu7708 244]

A snippet of news from AVHerald.com

On Jan 26th 2016 the SHK reported that the investigation managed to read out both cockpit voice and flight data recorder, the CVR does contain the talks of the crew during the accident flight. The investigation is currently analysing and validating the recordings. A preliminary report is estimated to be released in a week or two.

[Tony Kemp 18]

Another tragic incident.

I hope the press don't spin too much yarn, you know how they work with pretty much any minor detail to create a good story..

 

Tony

[stu7708 244]

At a press conference today the Swedish Accident Investigation Atuhority released their preliminary findings into the accident.

I've read the report, found at the link below, but sadly for most others here it's in Swedish only. Although there are some Graphs of a select few FDR-paramaters and a transcript of the final 2 minutes of the CVR recording at the end that is mostly understandable for you all. That transcript just highlights how quickly the events unfolded.

http://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/SRL-2016_01.pdf

AVHerald posted a good summary of the report on English as well.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4920a18a&opt=0

[brett 2,303]

I hope they figure out what happened and await the final report.