stu7708 244 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Newest rumor from the site... The FDR have been found, but the memory card is missing... Fingers crossed that last statement isn't true... https://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/580732959193473024/photo/1 Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 CVR data has been read. It seems structural failure (windshield? not determined yet)..It was quick... sound of cracks,but crew initiated emergency descent by autopilot and then they weren't heard anymore. Autopilot was on during whole descent, but disconnected automatically shortly before impact when GPWS alerts appeared. Posted at PPRUNE, source not cited, not confirmed... John Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 "But the search for clues about what caused the crash was dealt a setback Wednesday afternoon, as investigators said they had so far been unable to retrieve any data from the plane’s cockpit voice recorder. The inquiry has been hampered further, an official said, by the discovery that the second black box, which was found on Wednesday, was severely damaged, and its memory card was dislodged and missing." From PPRUNE again, and characterized as a quote from the NY Times. I have not confirmed that the NYT actually published this, so just a rumor for now. If accurate, there are two separate pieces of bad news here, i.e. no data (yet) from CVR and memory module from FDR missing. The "...unable to retrieve any data from the [CVR]..." seems to call into question the earlier allegation about a structural failure. Laid end to end, all this points in different directions. Just have to wait until the sediment settles and things become a little more clear. John Link to post Share on other sites
J G 927 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I think that is highly unlikely that the memory chip is missing. Its not like you can pull it out and stick it in your camera. If it isn't there then there is something very wrong indeed. I would guess that the thing would have been tampered with. That would be a whole new ball game. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well, it did fly into a granite wall at about 370 knots. The photos of the CVR show the base housing (rectangular structure) severely distorted but the cylindrical portion containing the memory board stack still attached to the rest and pretty much intact. It may just have been an accident of physics that the cylindrical part was not severely damaged and dislodged from the base section. I consider it plausible that the other box could have been impacted by other heavy wreckage in a different way and have been torn apart differently than the CVR. I think the "chip" is actually a stack of several circuit boards within the cylindrical module, each with one or more memory chips soldered to it. Another thing to consider is that the device was probably still powered at the time of impact. I'm wondering about the possibility of one or more "smart shorts" occurring in a way so as to cause electronic damage to the memory modules or to affect their ability to retain previously recorded data. The scenario I'm proposing is not unlike the effects of static discharge damage to electronics (CMOS family is particularly vulnerable to this, as I recall). I'm not familiar enough with the details of the device to know if that is credible or not, but to me at least, it seems plausible but not highly probable. All kinds of weird things happen in catastrophic events. Obviously all this is pretty much speculation at this point. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MyPC8MyBrain 273 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 face first into a granite wall, wow that explains the shredded remains Link to post Share on other sites
hurricanemk1c 195 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Going on the windscreen craking theory (that now looks suspect), surely the first thing would be to don masks, as per SOP, rather than try and descend. CVR pretty badly cut up, but could be useable. From AvHerald: The CVR was found on site at about 17:00L and handed over to the BEA, at 09:45L on Mar 25th the memory module was removed from the part left pretty much intact, there were some problems reading the data, but the BEA have been able to extract the audio file that can be used. This concluded the official part of the BEA press conference. In the questions the BEA reported, they have been able to listen to the audio for a first time, but having the audio only for a few minutes prior to the press conference are unable to make any further statement. The debris and distribution of debris does not suggest there has been any explosion on board of the aircraft. When confronted by journalists with rumours originating in Finnish media quoting Finland's CAA about a burst windshield, the BEA said they have no such information. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm pretty much neutral at this point on the postulated burst windshield, but I wouldn't downplay the difficulty of simply donning masks in an event like that. A failed windshield, as opposed to just a cracked one, is a complex and catastrophic thing and comes in two flavors. If caused by an impact, i.e. bird strike (highly unlikely at FL380) or a collision with another object, it is likely to initially burst inward and fragmentation injuries and damage are likely. It is followed immediately by an outrush of the internal pressurized air in the AC and all the things that go with that. If it's simply a window failure with no external impact as an initiator, it's essentially an outward event because of the air bottled up in the fuselage - greater than the ram air effect of forward speed, for a few seconds at least. If the cockpit partition and door remain intact, the outflow is brief but violent then the inrush from ram air effect starts, at about -40 degrees. If the cockpit bulkhead and/or door fail (likely) then the outrush event lasts a lot longer and there will be substantially more "particulate" embedded in the airflow, essentially anything loose in the forward part of the cabin - cups, plates, clothes, pillows and blankets, books and magazines, phones and computers, just anything. This will be accompanied by a severe temperature drop and instantaneous fogging, both from dust and condensation. In either case, once the outflow event is over, the ram air effect sets in. Noise levels throughout will be incredible and painful in the cockpit. During the depressurization, any air in body cavities causes pretty severe pain; I understand a bad tooth is likely a worst case, though lots of other things such as ears and gastric parts are not going to be happy either and will be another distraction. If, during and after all that plays out, if the crew are still viable enough to be physically capable, and the masks and supporting system are still intact and serviceable, then they get to try to put the masks on. Most historical bird strike events are a poor predictor of this because they normally occur at much lower altitudes where cabin differential pressure is much lower. The same effects occur but the severity increases with altitude. Good luck with all that. It's the only game in town, but as I understand it, a positive outcome is far from a sure thing. John Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Holy Crap!!!! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0 Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France PARIS — As officials struggled Wednesday to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed in relatively clear skies, an investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in. A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter. “The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.” He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.” Link to post Share on other sites
brett 2,314 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 If true I do not have to read anymore, I can foresee what they will say next....... Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Some information on the cockpit door locking system, from posts on PPRUNE. There is a panel control used to operate the lock without leaving the seat. In normal circumstances, a pilot outside the door knocks and the guy inside confirms it's who it's supposed to be on CCTV and presses the unlock button allowing him in. In the case of an incapacitated pilot in the cockpit, once a timer runs out (supposedly two minutes) the guy on the outside can gain entry via a keypad, using a secret code. This can be prevented by the guy in the cockpit only if he's repeatedly pushing the lock button to reset the timer. Anyway, the crux of this, which I may not have exactly correct in detail, is that if one pilot goes to the porcelain convenience (OK, stainless steel in this case) and the other becomes incapacitated, there is still a way to gain entry. However, if the guy inside does not want anyone to enter, he can enforce that by hitting the lock button from time to time; if that is done, even the guy with the secret code remains locked out. The authorities have so far not confirmed or denied the story about the lockout and the silence is seen by some as tending to confirm the story. If patently false one would think they'd be saying so by now. They have also not identified the pilot and co-pilot by name and there's some speculation that the copilot may not be a Lutheran named Hans, if you get the drift. John Link to post Share on other sites
dodgy-alan 1,587 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 The mystery deepens, I guess they will now be doing an investigation into the domestic lives of the flight crew and in particular looking for any reason that may have tempted one of the crew to commit a very public suicide. Link to post Share on other sites
MartinW 0 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Breaking news: "Co-pilot manipulated controls to accelerate planes decent." "His attention seems to be to destroy the pane." "Co-pilot was conscious till impact." "co-pilot intentionally began decent of plane." Press conference confirms that the Co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane. Link to post Share on other sites
J G 927 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 .....some speculation that the copilot may not be a Lutheran named Hans, if you get the drift. John Drift got John. but the guys name was Andreas Lubitz. A very German name, so it looks like he may have been a Lutheran named Andreas. He must have been a very sick man to end his life in the way he did. Airlines should clearly spend more money on regular mental health assessments for their pilots. Link to post Share on other sites
dodgy-alan 1,587 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Latest news is that it was a mass homicide. The cockpit recorders show the Captain had left the cockpit to go to the toilet, at which point the co-pilot had locked him out. They could then hear him disabling the autopilot and beginning a deliberate descent, Screams of passengers could also be heard as well as the breathing of the co-pilot.......right up until the time she hit the mountain at over 700kmh! Whatever was going through that guys mind it makes this a really selfish act of suicide/murder and opens a whole new lot of questions about cockpit security. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 ...so it looks like he may have been a Lutheran named Andreas. I guess I'm happy that's the case, not the other. RIP all the pax and crew and peace to the families. Tough times for a lot of people and so unnecessary. John Link to post Share on other sites
wain 879 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Guy on the radio suggested that may be airlines should have a situation where if the pilot leaves the cockpit then another crew member should sit in just in case, expert said no because airlines are ran by accountants and it would be to expensive......makes you mad... Wayne Link to post Share on other sites
MyPC8MyBrain 273 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 that is the standard operating procedure in all U.S. airlines! Link to post Share on other sites
flybytes 34 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 The days when aircraft had flight engineers & going further, navigation/radio officers meant that back then there would always have been at least 2 flight deck crew present. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 If a pilot intent on murder/suicide is in the right or left seat, having Eric Brown, Sully, Orville, Wilbur, Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager all in the cockpit isn't likely to prevent it. All he needs to do is pick an opportune time during take-off, landing, approach or departure to do something violent with the yoke (or sidestick), rudder pedals, throttles, speedbrakes, flaps or reversers - or possibly some other systems - to cause an unrecoverable upset. Requiring a flight attendant or another qualified pilot to be in the cockpit when one of them has to go to the can will not prevent a determined person intent on crashing the plane from doing so. In EgyptAir 990 they were in cruise and the guy in the left seat was trying to prevent the guy in the right seat from killing all of them and failed. This is nearly impossible to prevent if the homicidal maniac actually makes it into one of the pilot seats. Any preventive measures would have to be applied before that happened. I hate to even think about what those measures might entail. John Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 3 person crews... All three armed with Tasers. Just in case any one of them is nuts, no guns in the cockpit, please. Link to post Share on other sites
dodgy-alan 1,587 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 It may be an idea but to move the cockpit rear bulkhead back a bit an put crew toilets and drinks making area etc INSIDE the secure area, so that the flight crew had no need to leave the cockpit area. It may not totally prevent it happening but at least a second pilot is always within the cockpit and able to try and effect a recovery. Link to post Share on other sites
allardjd 1,853 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Quote Just in case any one of them is nuts, no guns in the cockpit, please. There ARE guns in cockpits in the US - not all of them but it's allowed by the FAA subject to certain requirements being met, and it's up to the carrier whether to allow it in their cockpits or not. Some do, some don't. It's voluntary on the part of the pilots, when allowed - nobody makes them do it. "Good afternoon this is your pilot speaking with a little in flight information. Coming up on your left we're going to be catching a glimpse of the Grand Canyon, on the right you can see the Hoover Dam in a few minutes. We're flying at an altitude of 37,000 feet and our airspeed is 400 miles per hours. Couple little facts here I'm packing a Colt King Cobra; that's a 357 caliber firearm with a black rubber grip and a 6 inch barrel, also the co-pilot is carrying a Kimber Custom Defense pistol with all of the bells and whistles you'd expect from a custom gun of that kind with an alloy frame and bevel treatment on the entire gun. Our Chief Flight Attendant Roger has a Ruger Bearcat, that 22 with a hand fluted cylinder. All three are capable of piercing body armor at a distance of up to 27 feet and can put a hole in human bone and flesh the size of the Grand canyon, which by the way is coming up on the left hand side of the plane. So just sit back and relax and enjoy the rest of the flight." It doesn't matter. See my post above. If the suicide/homicide perp is in right or left seat, at a critical time in the flight, he can easily cause an unrecoverable upset that two other guys, with or without tasers, will not be able to recover from. Consider pulling and holding back all the throttles and starting the slats/flaps coming up few seconds after rotation, or putting your feet on the yoke and pushing hard while on 1 mile final, or pushing hard on one rudder pedal 20 seconds before touchdown. Being tasered three seconds later is not going to save the flight. If the guy in one of the two pilot seats wants to crash the flight and picks his moment, he can. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Coffee 2,030 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 True. There is no such thing as suicide proof . Link to post Share on other sites
jaydor 345 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Far to fast a blame response from the prosecutor to make. The Co-pilot could have well suffered a seizure of some form such as a Stroke that left him confused. Then in his attempt to get help did it all against the book. The confuse brain does some very strange things. So I am out of the blame game and only when I have joined the Chief Pilot in the sky will I maybe get the answer. Rest in Peace all 150 souls that were on board.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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